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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,240 Views)
cagey
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Sodden thought for the morning: It's the baby that turned Natalia gay!

Back after the Wedding didn't, Nat was very clear that she takes relationships very seriously and Olivia couldn't just move her ass back into the FoL. There in followed the endless Months of Dither in which Natalia kept asking what they were to each other. Finally the pregnancy - which tells her that God did have a plan and this was the sign that she was meant to be with Olivia for life in order to raise this child. Quite possibly without the baby, Nat would have never made that leap. She sure wasn't going to have an affair with Olivia and she couldn't see a reason for them to commit for life just between themselves.

Now I feel slightly soiled even having thought this up in the shower.

Which brings me back to Olivia and just what was she expecting to get in a relationship with Natalia? Was she ever ready to do a for life commitment?
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abzug
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In love with a prisoner
Liv and Nat are on tomorrow. Thank god. I couldn't have sat with yesterday's ep through the weekend. Here's a clip from tomorrow's ep. Obviously it's spoilery, in that it's from an episode which has not yet aired. If you don't want to be spoiled, don't click.
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ekny
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Thank you for the clip, which-I-did-not-click-on. :)

Guess I'll not-see you guys in the spoiler thread today. Fwiw...

Abzug, that most recent post, about Nat having to move forward even though every sign from Olivia is No/Off, that clicked for me.

I think they made a number of strategic moves that don't make much sense here, emotionally, which is a real shame. Biggest is Rafe: Rafe and Frank have the wrong roles, in relation to this storyline. Frank should have Rafe's role, period.

But the show can't conceptualize men in that way because it's a soap and grown men are Sensitive, above all (and good), &tc--Rafe is a boy, which is part of why he's having trouble with this, as they're presenting it. So you say: yeah, and...? What's wrong with conceptualizing it that way to bring across some of these homophobic ideas to the audience (because they need to be introduced up close & personal to more homophobic ideas.) THe problem, I suggest, is that Rafe is completely untenable as a character. If you find any--I mean any--boy in the world who has been raised alone, by a loving, attentive mother--then that boy will be one of the. most. devoted persons *on the planet* to that mother of his. He will want her happiness beyond anything. And he will not say, he will *never* say: the thing I wanted/needed most is a Daddy. That characterization is so deeply wrong & inaccurate it's hard to know where to even start. This has literally nothing to do with reality. It *makes no sense*.

As for the rest of it... I didn't find O's comments on the tracks, etc, anything other than self-protective, more of the same. And agree: she has to shut down completely now for Nat to get a fire lit under her ass. (Cooper stuff aside which I cannot discuss without getting an ulcer.) I always read her fears about the Next Step as being solely related to sex. Olivia isn't someone who would (it seems to me) enjoy this nebulous feeling of uncertainty, things being undefined--most particularly for an extended period of time. It would drive that kind of character up the wall. She needs empirical data. She's a physical character. So the longer the Nothingness dragged on, the worse it would get for her. Thinking about going back to what's familiar rather than all this tortured nothing would be pretty much a relief, in some ways. I don't think the label thing bugs her at all. The no-sex? would drive her effing crazy. (Yes to all the rest about a feeling of security & knowing where she stands & so forth. Am just addressing that particular question/issue of a page or so back.)

BBQ scene: coming-out/not. This show is crazy. How can we argue/discuss what it Meant when the show won't use any damn words, the characters won't speak them, and no one acts on them?
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abzug
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cagey
 
Finally the pregnancy - which tells her that God did have a plan and this was the sign that she was meant to be with Olivia for life in order to raise this child.

When you wrote it out like this, I had an even sicker thought. Natalia is Mary, and Olivia is Joseph. And the baby is Jesus, conceived through a type of immaculate conception, except in this case it wasn't immaculate from the sex perspective, just from the love perspective, and in the world of Guiding Light, it's the love which matters more. So the baby is, as you say, a way of giving the mother and her partner a family, which they couldn't have in the traditional way (Mary because she's a virgin, Natalia and Olivia because no one has figured out how to produce babies without sperm yet).

cagey
 
Quite possibly without the baby, Nat would have never made that leap. She sure wasn't going to have an affair with Olivia and she couldn't see a reason for them to commit for life just between themselves.

I had/have more faith in Nat than that. I feel like both Nat and Liv were consciously working towards a potential future where they spend their lives together as romantic and sexual partners, in the fullest sense. They weren't ready for it, but they felt that the love and desire were there, and it was a bunch of other things (identity, religion etc) they needed to work through.
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abzug
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If you want to see what Ellen Wheeler said about Otalia last night, click here:
http://img30.yfrog.com/i/cql.mp4/
Nothing spoilery, I promise.
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ekny
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abzug
Aug 20 2009, 11:30 AM
When you wrote it out like this, I had an even sicker thought. Natalia is Mary, and Olivia is Joseph. And the baby is Jesus, conceived through a type of immaculate conception, except in this case it wasn't immaculate from the sex perspective, just from the love perspective, and in the world of Guiding Light, it's the love which matters more.

No, I went there immediately, but was so squicked by the whle thing I just deleted it before doing the rest of my post. Agree w/yr second comment.
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solitasolano
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cagey
 
It's the baby that turned Natalia gay!
Shower and all this made me chuckle. I get what you’re getting at here and can play along. abzug, don’t let cagey’s dry humor conflate you and the wonderful brain kisses you can turn out…You are both right. Head and Heart Natalia’s there. Now we get to watch how a sure but less assertive person (compared to all out Olivia) goes for what she wants.

abzug
 
Thanks for that YT link. Man, this show was SO damn good back in the fall. I can't wait to rewatch all those clips.
I just can’t shake that the last time Otalia had a good argument was the spa trip. I’m resigned to the no kiss and the no sex. but could I at least get some passion somewhere’s out of what’s left. Any ole argument would be nice. That’s my plea for the day.

ekny
 
BBQ scene: coming-out/not. This show is crazy. How can we argue/discuss what it Meant when the show won't use any damn words, the characters won't speak them, and no one acts on them?
That sorta follows the no kiss no sex decision for sure. Put me out of my misery already.

Back to the shoot out at the railroad scene from yesterday. Parallel story telling. It’s not just Natalia who has a plan for everyone else, Olivia has a plan too…a stupid one, grant you, but a plan for someone else none the less, that Frank should, and will goddammit, marry Natalia. To Frank and then to Rafe, Olivia says it doesn’t matter what Natalia wants because she said ‘no’. Anvil much. No, this not going to last too long. How can it? 4 week left? Make the leap, girlfriend…really someone’s out there to catch you.

Oh, and the Mary, Joseph, Jesus analogy is just so wrong to read before I have to go sit in a dark theater all day. Thanks though, bookended between ‘baby made Nat gay’ and that, I’ll have a good day. :rolleyes:
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ekny
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I don't know whether to ask about Solita's two references to some "no kiss no sex decision" or not. I don't know if that's a spoiler or just what you'[re extrapolating. Please don't spoiler it, okay? If it is I don't know if I want to know. I find myself thinking: they can't seriously go out without a kiss. I'll have to firebomb CBS or something.

Not that the idea pisses me off.
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cagey
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Well now that we've all gone to that icky place of sexless love and conception, we can move on.

Rafe: untenable character - absolutely. I still think he got short-changed when the story got truncated. He's awfully Oedipal these days, isn't he? What's getting him, I think, is Olivia being part of his mother's life. Like he gets the sex vibe around her and he never feels it around Frank. Gee, that would be correct, wouldn't it? Natalia doesn't respond to Frank sexually at all.

So Frank could be his Daddy but he'd always be Mommy's favorite. Bet he feels the same way about the fetus.

So I'm thinking Rafe's truly astoundingly horrid statements are not so much generically homophobic but specifically spiteful towards the woman he views as a threat. Is that what you mean, ekny, about it really being Frank's role to play? But Natalia has no problem telling Frank to go away, so if he is a nasty to Olivia he can be demonized and dismissed. Rafe, however, is another matter.

Coopers: guess we'll learn more tomorrow but only Frank and Blake know why Natalia left him at the altar. Everyone else thinks it was a momentary bump in the road and now the baby bump has put them back onto the path of True Luv. It doesn't bother me that Frank offered to marry her - that is what guys are supposed to do. But then I don't find the Coopers to be all that irritating as a group.
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solitasolano
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ek, definitely NOT a spoiler...just the show itself SINCE mutual love confesstions mid April....I see a trend, ya know?

I watched the show backwards (don't ask) from July on back...ya know I was looking for the kiss....I'm not anymore....not spoilage just speculation from what I've seen (or not) so far. :rolleyes:

I mean have you seen something I missed in what's been broadcast? Should have happened long time ago, n'est pas? Really I know nothing except what I've seen since April. If not then, when? Don't be upset.
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ekny
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OKay, thanks Solitasolano! :)

Cagey: I'm not saying more or more complicated than I'm saying, really. Just that Rafe's hateful, conditional response to Natalia is not credible at all, in any way, according to what I & my friends who I've discussed this idea with all know from various personal experiences to be the case with young men raised by women. It's crap. It's totally stupid. And it doesn't make emotional or psychological sense.

It doesn't make sense as a storytelling device, either: to enable Nat's ability to tell Frank to go away more easily than Rafe. I mean sure, I suppose so, but my response is: so what? They're the storytellers, let them work a little harder if that's some kind of wrench. I don't have a problem w/the fact it's programmatic & sketchy. But it can't be those things and psychologically ludicrous, all three. Too many leaps for me to make. Rafe's hostility & antagonism towards Natalia just sets off all my bullshit meters. Olivia--sure. No prob. That works all over the place. Rafe, I simply cannot buy. I *get* that he's a hateful little pissant, durr: I just don't buy it. Frank has reasons to be that way & play that role. Rafe does not.

The larger point, I suppose, is that Natalia as a character simply isn't conceptualized as clearly as Olivia. So everything around her feels inconsistent & crayoned in. To me, anyway. Most of all her vacillation-mode. I think that's because on some very basic level, they know it's stupid, and wrong, and just... well. Stupid. D u m b. So they can't quite make it work either, in their heads or on paper/screen. It's like they're going against the tide for their own story. They have strong enough characters who are telling them what to do and they're not listening. Unbelievably embarrassing mistake to be making, if you ask me. But then again, it's a corporate-sponsored product. So what'd we expect.
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ekny
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The other thing that made zero sense to me was Olivia telling anything to Father Ray, much less specific details about how she is handling her non-relationship with Natalia. She has no reason to trust him & every reason to resent him.

However. 1) he's the only person, arguably, Natalia might confide in. (Olivia doesn't know the details of N's ongoing pastoral struggles with Fr Ray), and 2) the longer I unwillingly consider yesterday's messages from Olivia the more I see it's all the same thing, what she's doing--all the same message: to Frank, to Rafe, to Fr. Ray. She probably told the postman, too. It's like using the worst aspects of Mayberry to both lay her plot & (though she doesn't know it yet) get what she wants. Ie: this is gossip central. Therefore, let my runners do the work. Let them go forth & say in no uncertain terms: Olivia is done with Natalia.

That's why she's so willing to talk to Father Ray: under no other circumstance could I see her doing so, because she has absolutely no reason to trust him. And of course she doesn't. She only trusts one or more of these assholes to carry her message back.

It's sort of like this brilliant disinformation campaign, a trojan horse, except she doesn't quite know it yet. I mean, she could take out a banner ad in the paper, or... no, I'm thinking one of those billboard things you see along long stretches of highway, with uneven hand-made lettering and Alarming Messages to Someone, No one, Everyone.


And that's why I'm still watching. Because Olivia's character coheres, and has 3 dimensions, and makes sense. Because CC is superior enough as an actor (and pulls enough weight with the writers, I suspect) that she can steer them away from their worst impulses & excesses. What a business.
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abzug
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ekny
 
If you find any--I mean any--boy in the world who has been raised alone, by a loving, attentive mother--then that boy will be one of the. most. devoted persons *on the planet* to that mother of his. He will want her happiness beyond anything. And he will not say, he will *never* say: the thing I wanted/needed most is a Daddy.

I totally agree with you, and I think Rafe was drawn this way, historically. In fact, until he got out of prison, he rejected this idea of needing any sort of dad, and told his mom he just wanted her to be happy. So I think we have to assume that there was something in discovering his mother's sexuality and/or specific desire for Olivia which triggered this other reaction in him, a violent, hostile one. Possibly because he and his mom were previously too co-dependent for him to consider her as a separate being from himself.

cagey
 
What's getting him, I think, is Olivia being part of his mother's life. Like he gets the sex vibe around her and he never feels it around Frank. Gee, that would be correct, wouldn't it? Natalia doesn't respond to Frank sexually at all.

Yeah, it's probably horribly disorienting to him to be exposed to his mother as a sexual being. Given that she didn't date his entire childhood (as far as we know) and was only with Gus (who was his dad) and then Frank (who was his pseudo-dad), Rafe's mother has never been a sexual being in his experience. Also, to flip this around, do you think it has anything to do with him being able to see Olivia's sex appeal? I mean, he can see Olivia's hot, and strong, and that's got to feel weird also.

ekny
 
Olivia isn't someone who would (it seems to me) enjoy this nebulous feeling of uncertainty, things being undefined--most particularly for an extended period of time. It would drive that kind of character up the wall. She needs empirical data. She's a physical character. So the longer the Nothingness dragged on, the worse it would get for her. Thinking about going back to what's familiar rather than all this tortured nothing would be pretty much a relief, in some ways. I don't think the label thing bugs her at all. The no-sex? would drive her effing crazy.

But don't you take her at face value when she says things like "If sex never happens I'll still want this" or whatever the line was? I agree it's not natural for her, or what she'd ideally want, but I do think she came to the conclusion that she loves Natalia enough to be with her in some romantic, non-sexual way for the long term, given Natalia's issues around religion, no sex before marriage etc. Basically, I believed Olivia was ready and willing to make this sacrifice (and also that she was glad as hell that Natalia didn't want her to).

solitasolano
 
Now we get to watch how a sure but less assertive person (compared to all out Olivia) goes for what she wants.

I liked the way you described this. It made me really look forward to seeing it happen.

ekny
 
To me, anyway. Most of all her vacillation-mode. I think that's because on some very basic level, they know it's stupid, and wrong, and just... well. Stupid. D u m b. So they can't quite make it work either, in their heads or on paper/screen. It's like they're going against the tide for their own story. They have strong enough characters who are telling them what to do and they're not listening.

But doesn't that mean, then, that they haven't drawn Natalia well enough, in terms of her religion? Or haven't made us (and the actress, etc etc) understand it so that we believe she'd vacillate this way? I mean, I think at a high level, the way they've drawn the story is workable. It's just at the micro-level, I don't believe many of the small moments. Which means they haven't made Natalia's love for Jesus, or God's love for her, a clear enough character in the story. And if the characters are telling them that Nat should be jumping Liv, well, maybe it's because they (and we) are listening with the ears of liberals who live in the blue parts of the country (and in their case, work in entertainment). That said, I think you're right to acknowledge that the central problem is that this is corporate-sponsored storytelling, not artist-driven storytelling, and so many many factors come into play which wind up being more important than telling a good story well.
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ekny
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I just got home & haven't had x to read through everything, will ETA in a bit, but: the more I think about Olivia's strategy, the more I like it. It's business: it's a cost-free (so she wants to believe) viral campaign so effective that everywhere Nat goes, eyes will be blinking out of the walls whispering: Olivia doesn't want this, Olivia's called it quits. She said so: she told me herself. She got the people she trusts *most* to do it: her enemies, her detractors. That's who you can rely on. I think it's brilliant.

She can't use Blake, because despite everything, Blake knows what's being going on a bit too well to buy this. I sense a Doris moment with Nat coming up.

Because Nat is too... I'll be nice: naive, to understand a brush-off when she hears one. I'll call you.

***

ETA:
abzug
 
Rafe's mother has never been a sexual being in his experience.

I agree with all these observations but this most of all. If we're going to buy the Rafe as insanely hostile subplot. :)

abzug
 
Basically, I believed Olivia was ready and willing to make this sacrifice (and also that she was glad as hell that Natalia didn't want her to).

I believe Olivia wanted to believe that with all her heart. But every time she said it (and she said it more than once in several ways), she physically ran back to Nat or touched her or did something to indicate whatever she thought, her body was not in agreement. Same thing in the Tuesday? scene with the face-caress. She can't let Natalia touch her back for a variety of reasons that are emotional, not sexual, but that impulsive move was one of the better notes in that scene, however awkwardly some of the rest of it played.
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cagey
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
Today on Guiding Light:
Philip admits he got panicked and ran away to Mexico.
Beth says she's finally mature enough not to need a man to lean on.
Josh is back to stalking Reva.



ekny
 
the more I think about Olivia's strategy, the more I like it. It's business: it's a cost-free (so she wants to believe) viral campaign so effective that everywhere Nat goes, eyes will be blinking out of the walls whispering: Olivia doesn't want this, Olivia's called it quits. She said so: she told me herself. She got the people she trusts *most* to do it: her enemies, her detractors.


Forgive me for being dense - but where's this strategy going? Is this actually her best idea on how to reject Natalia? Is it to establish that Olivia in no way enticed Natalia into a gay relationship? Or is it to draw out Natalia? Cause I do not think Natalia requires any drawing out. She's there baby - jesus told her so.

What it is, as I understand the way of soap writing, is typical: something happens and then the rest of the town reacts to it. She said no, and then goes around town telling everyone she said no.

abzug
 
That said, I think you're right to acknowledge that the central problem is that this is corporate-sponsored storytelling, not artist-driven storytelling, and so many many factors come into play which wind up being more important than telling a good story well.


Isn't all tv corporate sponsored storytelling? I think there are numerous factors that make daytime serials function differently from nighttime serials or cable, but corporate concerns about show content is there in both cases. P&G doesn't just sponsor soaps - their ads are all over the networks.

ekny
 
The larger point, I suppose, is that Natalia as a character simply isn't conceptualized as clearly as Olivia. So everything around her feels inconsistent & crayoned in.


Olivia is a character in the making for 12 years: both in actor and in writing and in how other characters react to her. Natalia is fuzzier. Just is. One has to take what few things we know to ring true about her and use them to understand how she responds.

ekny
 
I believe Olivia wanted to believe that with all her heart. But every time she said it (and she said it more than once in several ways), she physically ran back to Nat or touched her or did something to indicate whatever she thought, her body was not in agreement. Same thing in the Tuesday? scene with the face-caress. She can't let Natalia touch her back for a variety of reasons that are emotional, not sexual, but that impulsive move was one of the better notes in that scene, however awkwardly some of the rest of it played.


Just want to mention that the desire to touch someone does not automatically conflate to the desire to have sex with someone. I do believe Olivia is sincere in saying that if sex never happens she still wants to be with Natalia - and sure she was relieved when Nat said she wanted it to. The mutual face grab was interesting: Natalia takes Olivia's face into her hands and after a moment, she is deflected by Olivia. Olivia wants to take Natalia's face and stops herself as if burnt. Since I only ever have about 2 good ideas at any time, I'll say this again is about commitment not physicality.

Finally, Rafe - yes ek, I agree about the experience of single mothers and their sons. But that doesn't per se mean that Rafe's response is not credible - it is simply out of the ordinary. Prior to shooting Jeffrey he is sort of a punk who loved his mother. After Gus' death he becomes obsessed with a father he never had and living up to that image. Once out of jail he pushed away from Nat and wanted his space to find his direction. Then once he moves in the Frank and finds out about Olivia, he wants his Mommy back. He was actively moving away from Nat even while trying to assert himself as the Man in the Family.

I'm willing to bet some hard of my hard earned Otalia bucks that Nat tells him to be a man and deal.
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