| Welcome to Nikki And Helen. We hope you enjoy your visit. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. Join our community! If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Otalia - Guiding Light | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,239 Views) | |
| abzug | Aug 21 2009, 02:34 AM Post #796 |
|
In love with a prisoner
|
Not HBO or Showtime shows. But even on network or cable tv, in primetime there are usually multiple corporations paying to advertise. On a soap, it's really just one. If P&G doesn't like something on their soap, they hold the entire purse. If P&G doesn't like something on a prime time show, they can pull their ad, and likely another advertiser will buy the ad instead. Maybe for not as much money, but the power of the purse is more diffuse. But yeah, this is why most tv is compromised in some way, although I think prime time shows are less so than daytime (from what I can tell). |
Visit the Bad Girls Annex!
| |
![]() |
|
| ekny | Aug 21 2009, 02:40 AM Post #797 |
In love with a prisoner
|
re the strategy: I'm simply reading her actions as if they're metaphors, that's all. Abzug: yes, what I was going to try to say but you said it better. |
![]() |
|
| cagey | Aug 21 2009, 04:05 AM Post #798 |
|
G3 Curtain and Duvet!
|
okay - but isn't P&G the non-media corp that owned a soap? What about ABC or NBC and their ownership of the shows they broadcast. I would love to enter into a discussion of just how much artistic license there is on any corporately funded media outlet - cable, major film distribution or broadcast. Personally I find laying the fate of Otalia at the feet of some Corporate Decision a little facile. There are so many other things going on - and most especially because of the show ending. We could play around all day wondering what the show might have been like if it was not cancelled. But I guess I am still not quite at the place you all seem to be about the apparent destruction of the storyline. I've always thought the story is what it is. What is interesting to me is how the lesbian "community" took that storyline and ran with it. Saw it as possibly more than it ever was meant to be. And no, I don't think the writers were kidding themselves when they tried to make a "lableless" story. They tried, we made them fail. (yay us for living in the real world) That interactivity between the story and the viewers has been awesome to watch. But the thing with the soap is -- if it doesn't turn out the way you want it; keep watching - it will change. GL will now not change and I think that aspect -- much as it heartened me when the cancelation first was announced, has forced the story into places it didn't have to go. This is sad for the story but you can't look at it as you would a completed film or novel or even something as defined as one year in series tv. I think soaps live for a day and then live in memory. A single day is really good or really bad (and today was really bad). But the total effect is not in the clips but in how they accumulate in your mind. BTW: RE: Rafe - the dp had the best take yet on him: he is an asshole because he is a true blood Spaulding! Those men who mount their wives daughters and sisters. |
![]() |
|
| solitasolano | Aug 21 2009, 06:37 AM Post #799 |
![]()
|
Morning YT inspired by:
Olivia promises to be as gentle as a lamb. he he. Rafe makes my skin crawl. So does the triangle. That's all I am able to add to the discussion at this moment. |
![]() |
|
| ekny | Aug 21 2009, 06:59 AM Post #800 |
In love with a prisoner
|
...with you, girl. My time to hold someone else's fringe. Just PM. ![]() I don't honestly think it is totally derailed or that the lesbian 'community' (? does it exist? really?) tried to make it something it wasn't. They just hoped it could be something it *was*. Or was becoming. But the mention of Frank being in their lives every. day. for the rest of their lives was more than a bit much, and Nat's passive behavior with the Coopers--which I badly want to believe she will put an end to, like, to-effing-morrow, had me like to pop a rivet. This is what a month of prayful retreat has wrought? Send the woman some damn flowers, already. Something. Facile hopes: 1) Blake yanks Frank by the... tie in a better direction. Hers. The bridge. Montana. 2) Rafe... oh nevermind, Idon'tcare. Just go away. 3) Doris. Please with the Doris. |
![]() |
|
| cagey | Aug 21 2009, 02:59 PM Post #801 |
|
G3 Curtain and Duvet!
|
It's a delicate point and it's about viewer perception. Which we keep touching on - how this story is perceived by the non-lesbian GL watchers: just what are they seeing? Did they start seeing an explicitly lesbian story line developing back in December or did they see a loving story of two women coming to depend upon and trust and share? That's the story they are receiving; we are watching the same tv show but receiving a different story. In our story Frank is an impediment, so the longer he is around the more we feel the story has gone off - it has gone off the rails of our expectations for it. But really, what is wrong with Frank being in their lives every day? He's not in bed with them; he won't be making decisions about their relationship - once they get around to having one. He's already been established as a semi-lousy father (see Marina). I'd worry more about Alan in terms of people who actually would try to mess with their relationship. Parallel Construct I Forgot to Mention And You Will Hate: Marina and Mallet and Shayne. Marina and Shayne doting over baby Henry while unseen Mallet stands on the stairlanding warily watching Shayne bonding with the baby. Gentle As A Lamb: A final thought about Rafe - is that possibly the only time someone has really chewed him out about his behavior towards his mother? His snotty behavior that has been on display long before his mom went gay? No wonder he hates Olivia. And ek? I have to say this once again: you should be writing for the soap :rolleyes: |
![]() |
|
| solitasolano | Aug 21 2009, 03:28 PM Post #802 |
![]()
|
LOL. I just got a kick out of my own Morning YT. Classic. cagey, Right about the Marina, Mallet, Shayne triangle. I've been aware of that since started watching late June and was wondering when the Shayne baby bonding was gonna be happening because it was sooooo predictable. Damn, where's my morning neighborhood pusher. I'm dressed and ready to go and now I'll have the shakes for half a day. Enjoy and keep talking. |
![]() |
|
| abzug | Aug 21 2009, 03:34 PM Post #803 |
|
In love with a prisoner
|
Five minutes too late solitasolano! http://www.youtube.com/user/oootaliaaa And can I just say, I feel SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much better! Can't write more now b/c I have to go to the dentist, but today's episode was definitely a turning point in the direction towards our happy lesbian family. I didn't even hate Frank. |
Visit the Bad Girls Annex!
| |
![]() |
|
| ekny | Aug 21 2009, 04:06 PM Post #804 |
In love with a prisoner
|
I edited my whole post as spoiler-barred (scroll over w/mouse & hilight if you want to read it anyway) bec it's kind of cranky & if people enjoyed today's show I don't see why I should get in the way of that. --e I don't understand. The last scene I saw was Wednesday, with Frank telling everyone at Company he & Nat were having a baby, & people starting to make inquiries about marriage, and Nat standing around smiling mindlessly. Was there absolutely NO transition from that, to this first scene, today, of Frank standing at Company bitching to Buzz about How Complicated this all will be? *** running notes while waiting for the rest of the world to catch up or Abzug to get back from the dentists. (What's UP with that? I have an appt on Mon, mine just called 20 minutes ago. Some dental juju?) *** I am sorry to say this baby is likely to be the stupidest baby on the planet. Next to Rafe. Because Nat saying she made an appointment with a doctor MEANS: come along if you want, el stupido. Which Frank is too incompetent to know, so requires her to spell out for him. I guess he won't be a problem after all, since his only skill set is limited to throwing around baseballs; pursing his lips; and screwing without a condom. I hate N's hair this way, sorry. Presumably it indicates she has been imbued with more life and a new, bouncy spirit. Bad, bad clothes day for Olivia. Ugh. I found the scene between Olivia & Natalia sterile. <shrug> I didn't mind, it just bored me, it was totally predictable. Everything about today's episode was oddly predictable. Including the flowers. Also, "that's not fair" as dialogue still sucked, the note on the flowers was lame (it should have read something like: the flowers will never be as beautiful etc etc). I found it a relief to hear Olivia actually say: take your cookies and go. I'm over the food metaphor. Ah. Scene two: Olivia *explicitly* rejects the food metaphor. She ridicules it. This is the first thing about today's episode I found actively refreshing and engaging. As for Nat's exit lines... silly me, I thought the nature of love involved something ongoing, not finding one thing or "the" thing to Prove Oneself. But hey, it's a soap, things get simplified. <sigh> I'm going back to work. Bottom line for me was: this week's low points were so low I cannot begin to actually believe any of today's episode. I feel, in fact, rather like Olivia: I don't trust it. It's a soap. Why should I. |
![]() |
|
| abzug | Aug 21 2009, 05:58 PM Post #805 |
|
In love with a prisoner
|
E, here I was going to respond to your post point by point, and rib on you a bit about being so cranky. But now that you've made it invisible, I'll just post my happy thoughts about today's ep. I loved the flowers as a metaphor for this "big love" that Olivia is carrying around, that she doesn't know what to do with. It doesn't fit anywhere when she tries to put it outside her personal space, and she can't stand the way it overwhelms her personal space. It's beautiful and everyone can see it, but it's so intrusive for her. Giving it to Reva was kind of sweet, actually, and I think an indication of the way that receiving love can make giving it (in this case, to Reva) a lot easier. I didn't mind the transition between the end of Wed's ep, and the beginning of today's. I wish we had seen a scene where Nat told Frank she wasn't going to marry him, but on the other hand, I'm glad we got what we got today. I liked that Blake and Buzz were giving Frank very good advice about how to handle being part of a non-traditional family, and none of them seemed phased by it. Yes, the assumption on Wednesday had been that Frank and Nat would merge into a happy hetero union, but no one seemed particularly bothered once they found out that wouldn't be so. And in fact it wound up being an opportunity for the writers to give the audience a lesson in how non-traditional families work, from the scene with Blake and Frank in the minimart to the discussion of legal papers between Frank and Nat. My favorite moment, maybe even more than Nat's final scene (get to that in a minute) was when Nat was talking to the baby about Olivia being stubborn. The "don't worry" was my favorite part of that line, because she's already got the baby invested in Olivia being her other mother, and so needs to reassure the baby that this will be so. Like, as if when she was away she told the baby all about Olivia, and how great Olivia was, and how wonderful their family would be. I kind of loved that idea. OK, last scene: yes, I loved that Nat took charge (sitting in the power seat behind the desk--nice!), and was committed and certain and assertive. That was all awesome. But what I liked most of all was that the scene acknowledged that Nat needs to get inside Olivia's head, to know and understand her better, in order to figure out what to do to win her back. Part of what's pissed me off about Nat has been her complete disregard for how Olivia was experiencing things, and a seeming lack of awareness of Olivia's vulnerabilities. I felt like this scene was acknowledging that, and it made me happy that Nat was committing herself to figuring Olivia out. And yes, E, all of this was completely predictable, because they've been telling us how this story will play out for the last nine months. But the eps make me happy, sad, anxious, elated--so the writers are doing something right. |
Visit the Bad Girls Annex!
| |
![]() |
|
| solitasolano | Aug 21 2009, 09:00 PM Post #806 |
![]()
|
“Take your cookies and go home.” Best line of the show. Especially after all that garbage about making cookies for your “friend” scene with Mel. Ok, hit the audience over the head if they haven’t figured out that Natalia’s definition of “friend” where Olivia is concerned is the same as Mel’s definition of “friend” where hetero bf is concerned. Unfortunately I imagine there’s plenty of TV viewers out there under the broadcast waves who haven’t figured that out yet. I wouldn’t agree that there was no transition between the last Otalia scene at Company on Wednesday and Frank and Buzz going at it when Natalia walks in. Frank doesn’t think for a second there is a marriage possibility. Give him at least that much credit. He’s only bothered by trying to figure out how the “family” thing is going to work. (Guess that’s for the same people who don’t get the “friend” equivalent yet.) Made perfect sense to me. I just wish that Buzz knew about Natalia and Olivia. He doesn’t does he? Abzug, your points about Buzz and Blake serving to explain alternative family situations is right on. That’s all that’s happening here, although I’m a tad concerned about where this legal custody papers thing is going to go. In RL a close friend of mine has been through all hell with custody issues with an unmarried ex. Not pretty and here in RL California, if Frank’s is named the father on the birth certificate then forget it, family court will treat him as a parent. But I digress into reality, back to the soap world. Re. the Olivia/Natalia scene. Ballsy for Nat to be there waiting sitting in Olivia’s seat…the power seat. I love how Olivia listens to Natalia. Not just in these scene but over their history both as friend and foe. I see it over and over again in all the clip. Olivia is very clear about the broken trust. Her calm and firm demeanor here in the office (her place of control) is a reiteration of her emotional explosion of that feeling and expression in the park earlier this week. Finally, Olivia wants to believe that Natalia can revive trust, but she herself doesn’t clue either at this time how that would be possible and says so to Natalia.
As long as my mind can’t work that way, at least I have exposure to your posts. Thanks. I just can’t come up with that stuff and it is all so obvious when I read it….Olivia carrying around her “big love”, but then all the rest you wrote too. There went my lunch hour…back to the stage. Is it next week yet? More latter. (Dental juju? OMG, I had to cancel a dentist appt yesterday because of my crazy schedule at the moment… Message board synchronicity. ) |
![]() |
|
| ekny | Aug 21 2009, 09:32 PM Post #807 |
In love with a prisoner
|
With respect, I see no reason to give him any credit whatever. His responses bordered on cretinous. I wrote more but deleted it. In my continued mood of unallayed cynicism, I will only say I was thoroughly amused by the fact that Olivia gave those flowers to Reva, of all people. Yeah, she's bereva'd over--whatever, Jeffrey, her childhood stuffed pet, dunno, haven't been following--but really, how perfect. ETA:
Ribbing/responding more than welcome, I just thought it'd be nicer & more fair to people to stay out of the way, on this one, at least first. Maybe this weekend if you still feel like it when others have had their say? Whatever you want, really.
|
![]() |
|
| abzug | Aug 22 2009, 02:11 AM Post #808 |
|
In love with a prisoner
|
OK, I'm responding, but I think it's going to be a little tough, because on so many things I just saw it the exact opposite way. Not for any reason, just a complete difference of opinion for which there is no way to provide supporting evidence.
Well, on this I completely agree, but the thing that changed for me regarding Frank today is that rather than being stupid and an active obstacle, he's now stupid and stepping out of the way to allow Natalia and Olivia to relate to each other directly. So from that perspective he has gained a tiny bit more of a clue than he had earlier this week, or earlier this year.
E, really? You're killin' me with this! As one fellow curly-haired brunette to another, have you no loyalty to your hair type, woman? I hate that they always straighten JL's hair. I'd love it if they left it curly for the rest of the show. I thought it looked beautiful.
I thought she looked absolutely smokin'. To me, her outfit was incredibly elegant. So plain and simple, and so flattering too. I mean, seriously, who can pull off a white pencil skirt? Not many people, but CC did. This was actually one of the recent outfits of hers which I've liked, a lot more than many others.
Well, yeah, sure, but I didn't expect to be surprised. Then again, I was completely spoiled. But just seeing Nat back in determined mode, rather than deer-in-headlights mode was such a huge relief. And a relief for me to see her so certain of what she wants with Olivia. I've been waiting for this since February, and feeling this from Nat (and having JL not screw it up, so I was able to actually believe the character) was way more important to me than being surprised by the way the story was playing out. I also found minor points of interest in all of their interactions. The ambivalence in Olivia was really well done, I thought. From the tiny smile after reading the card with the flowers (a smile which she quickly represses), to lines like "I wish I could trust you" (or something along those lines, can't remember it exactly) they're allowing Olivia to be cold, punishing and resistant while also being in love, and it all feels really believable. It's one thing they've managed to do fairly consistently in this story: have the characters experience and express multiple conflicting emotions at the same time, and not in a soapy way, but in a psychologically truthful way. I'm not saying this is the best example of it from the last 12 months, but as far as I'm concerned they're keeping it real and authentic.
Yeah, well, that would have definitely been better, I agree.
That's part of why I liked this episode. Because it was basically acknowledging that nothing Nat has done or said before, and nothing the storytelling has done and said before (like the food metaphor) has been enough. Nat (and the show) have to do more.
Nat hasn't claimed she's figured out the nature of love. She's just figuring out what it takes to get Olivia to trust her again. That IS something that can be accomplished in a single move (or group of moves). I don't see Natalia making one grand gesture--she's going to make a broader effort, a campaign, in essence, which is going to involve a lot of things. And one of them is going to be the one which finally pushes Olivia into forgiveness and trust. Does it mean they'll have a healthy happy wonderful perfect relationship? Of course not, and if the show weren't ending on September 18, I'm sure they'd experience more than their fair share of struggles in that arena.
I think that's a fair place to be after today's episode. I'm such a romantic when it comes to tv, however, that I feel quite relaxed and content. This was a turning point episode for me, in that I feel like it's clear the direction the next four weeks will take, and that's a direction I'm very happy about. Will it go just the speed I want? Who knows, but given that on Wednesday I thought we were heading to a very different place (Nat being pressured into another Frank marriage?!) today was a HUGE relief for me. |
Visit the Bad Girls Annex!
| |
![]() |
|
| cagey | Aug 22 2009, 02:38 AM Post #809 |
|
G3 Curtain and Duvet!
|
Solitasolano - thanks for the comment about paternity in CA - the dp and I were just discussing that this morning. Paper trail or no, given that she's told all the Coopers whose baby it is, Frank is going to have all the access he wants. Except, I didn't really feel hostile towards him. Besides, he and Blake are about to do the abbreviated version of The Shop Around the Corner, In the Good Old Summertime and You've Got Mail. Meanwhile, elsewhere is Springfield: Mel brings the cookies to Cyrus and then jumps on him. This possibly should have been Natalia's strategy as well, because those cookies almost got Mel into bed with Cyrus. Vanessa won't kiss on a first date, but dating is good. And for reasons I can't explain: I really like Jonathan - perhaps because he finds Shayne to be a bit of a stick up the ass. I'm glad he's back and I never even knew him. So much so, that I enjoyed him far more than I enjoyed Olivia today. I think we are having some role reversal - Olivia is now going to be stuck with the untenable and fairly stupid position of saying she doesn't know if she will ever trust Nat again and Nat will get all the fun lines of demonstrating how much she loves Olivia. That last scene was the good old Nat and it was lovely to see. It was good for her to reject the cookies. The cookies are the heterosexual paradigm. Natalia needs to go another route, which she acknowledges. Abzug - the flowers, and your comments about them, were great! They were like Olivia's talking stick. She'd put them down somewhere and a woman appears to tell her great truths about the nature of love. And when she gave them to Reva - did it not look like Reva was reading the card ... now that would be an interesting way for the news to get to Reva. Reva is a logical choice to give the flowers to, since she is lacking Love at this time. The transition from Weds: The last time we saw Nat she was looking pensively at a photo - which I assume is that damn 3 of them on the couch photo - and getting resolved. Cracks me up that soaps will spend so much time hitting you over the head again and again about the same thing and then expect you to make certain leaps of time and space on your own. It makes perfect sense if you are a soap watcher - they leave lots of bits out just so you can make it up for yourself. |
![]() |
|
| ekny | Aug 22 2009, 02:44 AM Post #810 |
In love with a prisoner
|
True, and obviously quite a turnaround in the scriptwriting. Or not, depending how you view the consistent inconsistencies of same. But, obviously, a relief. And yes, a substantial and much-needed one, as you go on to note.
Oh my. This made me laugh so hard I'll have to concede the point out of sheer amusement if nothing else. Ok, okay! Nice, it looked nice, Itakeitback!!! Still grinning. (Although, Abzug, speaking of really: that's curly?! Talk about a liberal definition! You causeth us to Smirk, as well as Guffaw.)
Again, some hours later: of course, I do agree. Absolutely. See how tractable?Also agreed about Olivia's reactions, totally. That really did work for me.
Isn't it interesting everyone so far has agreed on this--and been amused by it? It's like, alright already with the euphemisms!
I agree with all of your points, really (except the pencil skirt, although as always, her wardrobe has been increasingly realistic & I do like that sort of grown-up but practical aspect to it--she's out playing with Emma, she's got on normal-person clothes, etc). I'm just sort of Withholding a bit cause of the Cooper!Spawn thing, which *really* felt like a total trainwreck, along with the wasted time on Frank's el-stupido reaction etc. I'd just like one more week of this kind of stuff to feel a little more at ease. I'd like that a whole lot.
This is what I equated with Blake yanking his tie, in my Invisible Post? Mm. And about time, I say.
Huh?! When?? Was this some scene AFTER Cooper!SpawnfromHell I did not see??? Link please? |
![]() |
|
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · The Comfy Sofa · Next Topic » |









8:46 AM Jul 11