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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,234 Views)
cagey
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Remember when, back there in simpler times, I suggested that Olivia approached their relationship like it was a business deal - just ironing out the details before they could be together?

Today, Olivia showed that her understanding of what being a Friend is stems from the same source. I could have made that statement - the write a letter, make a call, give her money speech to any of my co-workers. For my friends, however, well... I think you know what happens with Friends, even when they are exes.

Did you clipper shippers see the scene with Matt and Vanessa? I don't suppose so, but it did show how affected he is about losing the Love of His Life (back) to Billy. I think I understand something more about him and what portends for him.

ekny
 
Olivia has to forgive Natalia. Period. End of. That's all they wrote, folks. That's endgame for Olivia's redemption arc. If she doesn't, she loses a chance at her great big love. If she does, she learns a Very Important Lesson about Love.

I will further place a bet that the way this will happen will involve Olivia, once again, apologizing to Natalia.


I dunno about that, although I bow to your greater skills in soap operage. In my book, Olivia has to let herself be open to Natalia - which is not the same thing as forgiving her. The endgame of Olivia's redemption arc is she has to let someone *in* and then believe and trust in at person. If I were to go down that road, I would say Natalia's leaving was exactly the test of that trust. Olivia uses it as an excuse to get out of the deal by saying she cannot trust Natalia. But Natalia returned because of her love for Olivia; she will always return; always be there.

Otherwise, apologies will be made. Probably on both sides. With tears. No kisses.
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ekny
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cagey
 
Today, Olivia showed that her understanding of what being a Friend is stems from the same source. I could have made that statement - the write a letter, make a call, give her money speech to any of my co-workers.

I have to disagree.... You would not have said, I'd do anything for you. And then repeated it. And sounded like it was the end of your world to say so.

I didn't mind the brutality of the scene; I minded getting sucker-punched by everything that came before it with no segue, however: the campy cute Nat slugging away at fruit juice in public in the middle of the day in a market, for ex. If we're busy making fun of Nat's Weepy!Faced angst over Rafe, and if that is how we're dismissing Rafe from the show... why do we care, then? What was the last 4 weeks of Rafe ugliness about?

And don't get me started on the appropriation of the gazebo for heterosexual mating rituals-cum-proposals.

And DON'T get me started on "watching". Just don't.

***

ETA: http://artsbeat.blogs.nytimes.com/2009/08/...page=9#comments

I was mildly interested to see over 200 comments posted to the NYT abt the show's end. Anyone know if that's a lot or a little or what.

***

The idea that Olivia has to let someone in: not getting it. She already did. To suggest she has Issues with intimacy and has not Dealt with the lesbian thing, unlike Nat, confuses hell out of me. Because it sounds like you're saying on the one hand, we have to accept they're not going there, onscreen, and take what the writers say as maintext, as maintext. Which I theoretically agree with fully although in practice I've reached the end of my ability to lobotomize my lesbian head every time I watch this show. But on the other hand, you're saying it is a matter of this invisible issue around sexuality which has been rendered invisible. So that's not making sense to me. Perhaps I am misunderstanding??

Suggesting it's an 'excuse' so Olivia can't 'close' what is the equivalent of a business deal sounds to me like her love isn't worth the, ah, script it's written on. Either we assume it's real or we don't. If we don't, there's no reason to watch. If we do, we have to take her (and the script, ugh) at its word and say: she said she felt betrayed & felt she couldn't trust Natalia. What part of that doesn't make sense, after the last 6 weeks? There's nothing in her presentation that says she's afraid of intimacy with natalia. Quite the contrary. The only positives in the last weeks have been the Reluctant Eyes of Shag. Which tell us that she's got it so bad she'll be heading home any day now.
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cagey
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ekny
 
If we're busy making fun of Nat's Weepy!Faced angst over Rafe, and if that is how we're dismissing Rafe from the show... why do we care, then? What was the last 4 weeks of Rafe ugliness about?


This, this is a very good question. What was the last 4 weeks of Rafe ugliness about? And can diabetics enlist in the Army? Got burned in the summing up of the story lines, is my guess. I find Nat's collapse at Liv's door to be highly objectionable but I still find Liv's response to be harsh.

I am now very interested in how bad the writing might become as things wind up. Not to say that I think things are being censored, which I totally do not is the case, but it does remind me of seeing "Baby Face", a 1932 movie, before and after the censors got to it and made the film tow a specific line.

ekny
 
I have to disagree.... You would not have said, I'd do anything for you. And then repeated it. And sounded like it was the end of your world to say so.



The phrase is "I will do anything in the world for you, as a friend". Personally, I would say that to a co-worker. That she says that as an almost not quite yet lover is just cold.

So, since we are all cards on the table and ekny has been all over the spoiler thread and cares not --

ekny spoilered this justincase for Jeanna, muah!
Yes Olivia is going grovel. I expect some Nat grovel as well. And by the time of the wedding, we are all in fairly happy places. No kisses? Why need them now. We will see this play out over the next week maybe?
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ekny
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cagey
Aug 29 2009, 02:31 AM
ekny
 
If we're busy making fun of Nat's Weepy!Faced angst over Rafe, and if that is how we're dismissing Rafe from the show... why do we care, then? What was the last 4 weeks of Rafe ugliness about?


This, this is a very good question. What was the last 4 weeks of Rafe ugliness about? And can diabetics enlist in the Army? Got burned in the summing up of the story lines, is my guess. I find Nat's collapse at Liv's door to be highly objectionable but I still find Liv's response to be harsh.

I know! Their handling of diabetes has been incredibly sloppy, it's a damn shame. They could have taken the opportunity to educate people a bit, or at least not misinform them, it's inexcusable.

Quote:
 
So, since we are all cards on the table and ekny has been all over the spoiler thread and cares not --


I'm going to use my Mod powers to spoiler this, actually, because Jeanna has not, so far as I know (she might not even be reading this at this point in case I depress the hell out of her...) but just in case...

cagey
 
Yes Olivia is going grovel.

I KNEW it! Argh. Figures.
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cagey
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ekny
 
The idea that Olivia has to let someone in: not getting it. She already did. To suggest she has Issues with intimacy and has not Dealt with the lesbian thing, unlike Nat, confuses hell out of me.


Sorry to be confusing. I'm not talking about the lesbian thing or dealing with it at all. In a show about Families and the Great True Love, Olivia has spent her entire tenure looking for both and not getting either. Long time viewers refer to the family she created with her sister and brother, but both of those characters are long gone, and that family had no connection to the larger Springfield community.

Olivia clearly has found her Great Love but she is still the tragic heroine. As such, she just can't make that final move to join up with Natalia. What Natalia is offering is the Family. It is the offer to come in from the cold. She does not want to believe that Natalia really really loves her.
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ekny
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What's objectionable about Nat's collapse? me = not getting it

Emotionally, it makes sense (to me) as moderately high drama. She's pregnant, stressed, her baby boy is going to the Army. As theater is it necessary in order to make Olivia's response to her all the more painful, thus giving Olivia something of equal offense to apologize for, after Nat's 6 weeks with the Sisters of Perpetual Silence.

I had no trouble with the entire handling of the Army thing, thought it was--within the limited parameters where this show meets 'reality'--extremely realistic, in fact. People (esp mothers) think you can 'unsign'. Leavenworth much? It's a done deal the second they've got that signature (diabetes aside). I just don't know wtf they were doing punishing us--and Olivia--with exactly how horrible Rafe was. I'd like to see that addressed.


Now that a full day has passed I feel able to say, although I understand the gazebo has been appropriated for straight mating rituals, that whole scene was pretty tedious.

Worse by far was the business about "watching". Yes, this show has, on several occasions, smirked about The Girl Thing. Buzz's reaction to Natalia all those months ago comes to mind. Plus Olivia probably clocked more on-screen minutes with Josh than Natalia this week and last. (Not to mention they showed more skin during their non-sex scene than--ugh. Let's not bother....)

But this subtext around watching was galling in the extreme. Josh is thinking about Olivia with another woman. Josh wants to Watch Billy's date with Vanessa. To have to endure being *teased* and... what's the word I'm looking for--oh yes: joshed about what the show quite seriously refuses to deliver--and then have it turned into a mildly salacious Beach Blanket Bingo! style joke--once again, pushed me past my limits. But having Olivia colluding with this was intolerable. Because I, too, am being asked to collude with 'watching' what is, in fact, invisible. I don't have to participate in my own erasure much less facilitate it. I can do that any day of the week with tv or in my own life. I don't need the help of this show with any of that, thankyouverymuch.

So I find increasingly little reason to humor the pov the scriptwriters have embraced. Why should I? It's not 1950. Their audience is a lot more grown up than they give it credit for. If this is the best soaps can do with this material, the genre has cut its own throat & frankly deserves to go the way of the dodo.

I know people here keep hammering away at the same point I myself have made, time and again. I'm not sure I can respect the show's goal any more. I don't give a good goddamn about helping the ladies in Butte. Not at my own expense. We've been doing that for way too long.


I finally got this into rough shape only to see you've posted in the interrim! :) I agree.

cagey
 
I'm not talking about the lesbian thing or dealing with it at all.

Right. Yes. That. Exactly.

We are responding to two things: what is on the screen. And what is not on the screen. We can't do this at once, because it makes us crosseyed and seasick.

My point here being:

This business about love and sacrifice & forgiveness or trust slash letting-Nat-in: those are all well and good. But they're the fine points of this story: the dotted line. Without characterizing this couple as sexually involved/romantic and having even the most marginal parity with other couples in this same show, I don't think the scriptwriters get to do this. They didn't earn it. You have to take people through the steps. That's what they did. Until April. And then their own fear or agenda or CBS, whatever the hell their problem is, kept them from proceeding apace, and they retreated back to soapland. So it doesn't really work because we left Credible a long time ago. Story fall down go boom. Would Liv really *do* this at this point? I don't think so, actually. But the point is: this is desert, this Lesson about Love. We missed the main course. We got all the appetizers in the world, but--what happened to the main course? It got disappeared. (Supercouple my arse.)

---

the Cleavage of Friendship

Let's go all structuralist Levi-Strauss here for just a mo, shall we, as we observe the mating rituals of the adult desexualized non-lesbian character on prime-time soaps? Hey. It's been a rough week. (Ok don't worry, I'm not going there. But... we could: L-S emphasized relations between family *units*, rather than family members. Which all sounds a lot like Springfield & every other post-incestuous soap-town to me.)

But anyway.

The verbal empahsis in that scene is not on "as a friend". I realize it was scripted that way, I'm not ignoring that. But the emphasis is on anything. I see nothing in that delivery that contradicts the idea that this is costing Olivia something terrible to say: that she knows how awful it is but is desperate enough to fling this out there. She feels so bad after she can't even talk to *Josh* about it. So you know she's upset.

(If I were being true to my views of this as a degraded form of media with so much interference it's a wonder any story got written at all, I might well question whether it is anywhere *in* Olivia's character, at this point, to do say or act in any way like this to Natalia, at this juncture in their story arcs. But hey, would I do that? <blink. blinkblink.> It's a soap. I'm *sure* these characters are always written consistently so that their development takes primacy over that of the storylines and needs of the show & its advertisers to string things along etc.)

But I digress.

If we turn the sound off, then it is perfectly clear Olivia is exactly one half-step away from flinging herself at Nat, wounded heart and broken trust be damned. Whether or not CC chose her own clothes for filming, at this late date, I don't believe the actors were directed very closely re blocking & so forth. Maybe the script says: Nat sits on floor, Olivia crouches near. But no one with a rack like that is ever--as actor or character--unaware of what it's doing.

In short, this scene features 3 characters. And Olivia's mouth and brain may be saying no no no, but Olivia's rack is saying something rather different. It's not just a, um, forward display--it's extended. She could have sat crosslegged opposite Nat (except that would put them on the same level, which as Cagey would quickly point out, Liv would not want to do while bargaining from a superior position); she could have leaned one hand on the floor; she could have slumped parallel against the other side of the door. Lotta choices there.

Instead, Olivia's rack has center stage through the entire length of the scene. It's not just there as compensation for us, the audience. This display is so clear a bonobo chimp could read it. It is in fact SO clear than any heterosexual male on the planet could read it, because in any book you will ever pick up about female mammalian display, this is lesson 101 on girl-behavior.

So I figure next week, yeah.
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cagey
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That was a brilliant rack analysis ekny. Just brilliant. Thank you.

Two things -

ekny
 
This business about love and sacrifice & forgiveness or trust slash letting-Nat-in: those are all well and good. But they're the fine points of this story: the dotted line. Without characterizing this couple as sexually involved/romantic and having even the most marginal parity with other couples in this same show, I don't think the scriptwriters get to do this.


Next week Marina and Shayne are going to devise their own alternative family so that Baby Henry will remain the Center of the Universe. Granted M&S were a couple before but they are not right now and as far as I know Marina is still in love with Mallet. By comparison, Olivia and Natalia are a romantic couple who have declared deep and abiding love for each other.

ekny
 
Until April. And then their own fear or agenda or CBS, whatever the hell their problem is, kept them from proceeding apace, and they retreated back to soapland. So it doesn't really work because we left Credible a long time ago. Story fall down go boom.


April is critical. The minute the cancellation happened, the story foundered. Not saying there was ever kissing on the agenda but it was certainly under discussion. One could argue that the story got back burnered at that point and hasn't developed since. Not just Otalia's story either. There has been no real movement in any story - except to add or remove actors leaving for greener pastures or taking a final bow.

ekny
 
But this subtext around watching was galling in the extreme. Josh is thinking about Olivia with another woman. Josh wants to Watch Billy's date with Vanessa. To have to endure being *teased* and... what's the word I'm looking for--oh yes: joshed about what the show quite seriously refuses to deliver...


Josh is a stalker. I haven't quite figured out what this means. He spent weeks *watching* Reva's house after Jeffrey left. He was out there again just the other day. Unless they really do kill off Jeffrey in a big ole All American shoot out with Edmund, Josh is going to end up the show alone. Even Frank is getting someone. It's gonna be him and Matt playing gin rummy at Farley's.

So either he's a stalker, or he is Jesus.

PS: there's nothing objectionable about Natalia's collapse. Made perfect sense to me, put her in perfect position to receive Olivia's *message*. ;)
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abzug
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Hi, back online after my vacation. I don't have much to add to the discussion here, but I did want to say that I wasn't troubled by Olivia's reaction to Natalia's breakdown. It was a manipulative move on Natalia's part, albeit unconsciously manipulative, to go to Olivia when she was feeling so distressed. Olivia had been very clear about where she was at, and so Natalia going to her so upset wound up being simply another strategy Natalia was trying to use to reel Olivia in. It's like, "gee, I've tried telling her I love her, I've baked her cookies, I've made her breakfast, but none of that worked. I did manage to get her to find me a job. Maybe Olivia needs me to need her? If she feels the impulse to take care of me, maybe she'll come back to me?"

All of that completely unconscious, of course. And so Olivia stood up for her own needs and boundaries and didn't allow Natalia to use a back door to manipulate her into offering love. She doesn't trust Natalia* and needs to keep the walls up to make sure that she doesn't get sucked back into a relationship without consciously choosing it. I admired her reaction, actually. Very psychologically healthy.

*Was it e who said she didn't understand why this trust thing is still an issue? Well, whoever it was who mentioned it, I wanted to add that I don't see how it ISN'T an issue. When someone you love who loves you winds up being unreliable or abandoning, it's hard to believe they won't ever do that again. In fact, you start to feel like it'ds very likely they WILL do it again. This has actually happened to me in real life, and it took me months to trust the person again, and in the end I never really did, and the relationship crumbled. If you're a person who finds it hard to trust, who is always abandoned (by your mother, by every lover you've ever had) it becomes very difficult to turn off that alarm that says "I'm going to be heartbroken and alone!" when someone isn't reliable, loyal and ALWAYS there for you. Not always there for you except this one major time. Always there for you.
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solitasolano
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Otalia treading water all this week....zzzzzzzzz

ekny
 
I could certainly go on in my inimitable fashion and Count the Ways in which today's episode sucked ass

I thought the whole week sucked. The past week had only 7+ minutes of Olivia/Natalia screen time together out of the total 3 hours+ the show airs. Usually the CC acting crack keeps me going and interested, but even this week my thrills came down to the 4 nanosecond smiles Olivia/CC allowed herself to show.

The main event of Friday’s epi was Natalia laid out in a siege on Olivia’s threshold. A literal one this time compared to the figurative four month siege the character has waged on Otalia since declining the “come in” offer on that accidental first date and cross that threshold. Now it is for real, but which one of them is going to step over that threshold this time? It’s weird how they cut the end of the scene…for the past two weeks, I believe EVERY scene the two were in together has either or both walking away at the end of the scene….this time, Natalia’s siege at Olivia’s threshold ends with the two still facing and encountering each other.

Turnabout is fairplay, I guess. Natalia’s “I feel so alone” mirrors the six week long litany of the same the writers have had Olivia proclaiming over and over again in different ways and to different people.

I can’t, I can’t, I can’t, I can’t, I can’t, I can’t, etc. What I found interesting is that Olivia’s list of “I can’t"s did not mirror Natalia’s requests….they were all about not being able to love her and about the relationship and did not address Natalia's specific requests. abzug, (good to see you again) you’re right, Olivia is sticking to her boundaries, but with no little or no discussion, especially about the ‘some man’s baby’ pregnancy thing, this ship is in the doldrums.

For fun though: “I know what women want.” wink wink :D
I don’t for a second doubt that Olivia Spencer knows what a woman wants. Too bad we’ll never get to find out or see what that is. (Speculation only, ya think?)
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ekny
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Abzug, it wasn't me who said they didn't 'get' the trust thing. How could one not get it? I agree with everything you said.

Is Nat being unconsciously manipulative? Uh, YAH much, 3000 percent. It was their way of writing off the business with Rafe, as much as anything, I felt. I have nothing but empathy for Olivia. She just needs a smarter girffriend.

I just couldn't be arsed to fuss with psychological analysis when the show's structure is falling down around us. I feel more jerked off with every week that goes by. Waiting for Nat to get back was one thing. This sort of sloppiness with the writing, the last 2 weeks since--ugh.
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cagey
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Thanks for the threshold shout out solitsolano (and I love your tag line too) - I was just contemplating the meaning of Natalia sprawled out at the threshold, becoming the threshold. Likewise your observation that this scene ends with the two of them still facing each other links into ek's masterful analysis of where they are headed next (after a brief detour or two).

About trust and boundaries. I also concur that Olivia is clearly defining what her boundaries are in regards to being a *friend* to Natalia. That boundary is touching. Sad because back when they were just friends (as in a couple of those "do you trust me" clips) they touched each other a lot. Natalia is now too hot to touch; Olivia touches her and recoils. In a non-kissing world I think this is very interesting.

Those clips suggest that Olivia does/did trust Natalia as a friend; the issue she presents now is that she cannot trust Natalia as a lover. Fond as I am of splitting hairs, I still think the not trusting Natalia as a lover stems more from Olivia not trusting anyone as a lover with the convenient overlay that Natalia provided by her runaway.

ekny
 
Is Nat being unconsciously manipulative? Uh, YAH much, 3000 percent. It was their way of writing off the business with Rafe, as much as anything, I felt. I have nothing but empathy for Olivia. She just needs a smarter girffriend.


Writing off which business with Rafe? The hateful twit who insults his mother and has a the hate of a thousand suns for his rival to his mother's affection? This is still Natalia sure that she is a bad mother. We can debate that of course ;), but Olivia's response is all about what she won't do, can't do -- apparently can't even say: of course you are not a bad mother, cannot say anything. As for unconscious manipulation - yes of course, I agree totally that this is going on - why else be laying across the threshold. But let us not think Olivia doesn't know how to play that game as well. :)

ekny
 
I just couldn't be arsed to fuss with psychological analysis when the show's structure is falling down around us.


Could you elaborate on the structure falling down? I see stories truncated and imploded into snappy endings but overall it feels like the writers placed the explosives in the right places to cause the building to fold in on itself as it collapses.
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ekny
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cagey
 
overall it feels like the writers placed the explosives in the right places to cause the building to fold in on itself as it collapses.

I hope you're right but all I see is the collapse. I don't care if the bricks fly out & hit bystanders (like, um, the audience) or not, really. At this point, it's all kinda moot.

cagey
 
That boundary is touching.  Sad because back when they were just friends (as in a couple of those "do you trust me" clips) they touched each other a lot. Natalia is now too hot to touch; Olivia touches her and recoils.  In a non-kissing world I think this is very interesting.

Those clips suggest that Olivia does/did trust Natalia as a friend; the issue she presents now is that she cannot trust Natalia as a lover.  Fond as I am of splitting hairs, I still think the not trusting Natalia as a lover stems more from Olivia not trusting anyone as a lover with the convenient overlay that Natalia provided by her runaway.

[...] As for unconscious manipulation - yes of course, I agree totally that this is going on - why else be laying across the threshold.  But let us not think Olivia doesn't know how to play that game as well. :)


If the issue is Trust, then I sort of am confused by the fact you seem to be saying two different things at once. On the one hand, it's a game, it's a business, it's something Olivia knows All About. On the other, she's been hurt so badly she can't even allow herself to touch Nat because Nat's radioactive. So it's like: is Olivia a controlling manipulative bitch, still, even now, with Nat, just taking out her revenge, is that what you're saying? Or is she a drive-by Victim o Luv?

Or it's possible you are merely saying, in your elliptical way, that Olivia has issues around internalized homophobia to deal with. That's never rung any bells for me, particuarly, but I'd be happy to listen to your arguments. :)


The aspects of Olivia's character I mentioned above read--to me--as wholly consistent if we assume 1) Olivia was in fact raped by Jeffrey and 2) Olivia's adult sexuality has been, in part, shaped by this event. This is a character whose need to be safe and in control would define aspects (some, not all) of how she handles being with men. She may well not have the same set of issues with Natalia (in my view) not only bec N's a woman, but because the overriding issue of trust has to be dealt with before they ever even get to the bedroom. Once Olivia gives over, iow, that's it. Nat gets the whole package. So obviously, Olivia would want to be pretty careful with that, given how unreliable Natalia's been about taking care of Olivia's feelings in the past.


As for how they get there, if we're now no longer *even* touching, then we will literally be reduced to the nose-rub of love, when these two finally get their shit together and the writers allow them their moment in the shade. So I agree with your observation that it's "interesting" that they're not able to touch any more if by interesting you mean the last word in sanitizing their relationship to render it acceptable to whoever it is the producers of GL seem to think they're addressing. I actually do expect a kiss: I just expect it to be the least passionate, most boring, sterile, briefest, most chaste kiss in recent media history.
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cagey
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Natalia is not radioactive; Natalia is Kryptonite. If she touches her, Olivia no longer be able to blockade Natalia's affection or block her own.

ekny
 
So it's like: is Olivia a controlling manipulative bitch, still, even now, with Nat, just taking out her revenge, is that what you're saying? Or is she a drive-by Victim o Luv?


Oh no; this is not Olivia taking revenge. Olivia is expecting a certain level of expression of commitment from Natalia - hence this teensy little smiles when Nat chips away at the Berlin Wall of Love. Which does strike me as very business like as well.

Internalized homophobia? Not much. It's all about the commitment in my opinion. And that goes back all the way in Olivia's history, with that I completely agree.

ekny
 
As for how they get there, if we're now no longer *even* touching, then we will literally be reduced to the nose-rub of love, when these two finally get their shit together and the writers allow them their moment in the shade. So I agree with your observation that it's "interesting" that they're not able to touch any more if by interesting you mean the last word in sanitizing their relationship to render it acceptable to whoever it is the producers of GL seem to think they're addressing. I actually do expect a kiss: I just expect it to be the least passionate, most boring, sterile, briefest, most chaste kiss in recent media history.


Oops, I did not mean to suggest they can no longer touch. I suggest that Olivia cannot touch Natalia as for above: to do so would melt her heart of stone and either she can't do that until Natalia shows that she is still worthy of Olivia's trust, or, until Olivia can be open to Natalia entering her life forever. Take your pick on that one.

What this means is that all the chin chucks of love were and are very powerful in a world where lip to lip touching doesn't happen. All they had were the chin chucks and now they cannot even do that - this is how great the divide is between them.

As for boring sterile kiss - well yeah, if it happens so it will be - because it will be the bond of a contract to be together forever, not a I want a woman statement of complete metamorphosis.
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ekny
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Chin-chucks o luv?! Oh my. I am thoroughly entertained, thank you. :clap

(I have nothing else to add because I agree with you dammit.)
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solitasolano
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I can’t keep up with you all.
ekny
 
the Cleavage of Friendship…

The verbal empahsis in that scene is not on "as a friend"...

…. but Olivia's rack is saying something rather different.”

Righto....Implying the VISUAL emphasis is all "I want you"….well of course. Since Natalia’s return, Olivia has CONSISTANTLY voiced her love for and to Natalia…all six days (well maybe not that RR shootout scene day where they didn’t appear together…I still can’t figure that scene out expect to give Some Man the chance to say ‘you really love her” …see even he isn’t denying O loves N, but I digress.) Olivia, since Nat’s return has not denied love for her ever. Instead she’s mostly been expressing it…so what’s the hold up?

abzug
 
She doesn't trust Natalia* and needs to keep the walls up to make sure that she doesn't get sucked back into a relationship without consciously choosing it.

Righto…. This is the other message Olivia has consistently been giving Natalia since her return. Go back to my first postings in July (Nat has already rudely spilt.) and I maintain that Olivia’s expressions of “I’m scared” during those endless two months of May and June was about Nat not being able to commit rather than the sex stuff… (well that too, but more resignation than scared). Hey she was right…sure hope people who make their living from writing can resolve this better than I can in my head at this moment.

cagey
 
I did not mean to suggest they can no longer touch. I suggest that Olivia cannot touch Natalia as for above: to do so would melt her heart of stone and either she can't do that until Natalia shows that she is still worthy of Olivia's trust

Righto...Hereby synthesizing the love, sex, asnd trust issues at hand…I’m really hard pressed to know how the writers resolve this. One thing I’ve noticed as the show self destructs is scenes are becoming shorter and shorter. Not just Otalia scenes but throughout episodes…nothing is sustained which makes me suspect it will be hard to resolve the trust thing to my satisfaction let alone present company ie. no convincing discourse between the two ladies.

cagey
 
it will be the bond of a contract to be together forever, not a I want a woman statement of complete metamorphosis.

I agree completely as the show runners have shown they don't have a clue after all.

ekny
 
So I figure next week, yeah.

Well about friggin time. hope you’re right. Is is monday yet?


ETA: Oh yeah, forgot to mention yet again the untalked about pregnancy angle....Are Olivia's initial pregnancy put offs are going to be discussed or just wiped clean? Conveniently the latter I'm afraid.
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