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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,287 Views)
abzug
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molsongrrl
 
I tend to think when Olivia says stuff about taking care of Natalia - its more about just wanting to make her happy and do stuff for her in general. She has always seen potential in Natalia and pushed her at work etc. So I don't think she ever views her as some little girl who needs protecting. She knows Natalia is very capable. Hells bells she raised a kid by herself!

I agree that Olivia's impulses in relation to Natalia are very different from Rafe's and Frank's. And I know we've been discussing this issue for months now, but I still am not bothered by it, because I feel like the show is intentionally contrasting the two approaches. And they're coming down squarely on Olivia's side.

I feel like the best illustration of Olivia's interest in helping Natalia is the scene before she goes in for surgery to get her pacemaker. And she's taking her last few minutes to convince Natalia that she can handle all this new responsibility at the Beacon. It was a really powerful moment, and so different from Frank and Rafe's "I'll take care of you; don't worry about anything." Olivia's basically saying "You should worry about stuff, because you can handle it, you're an amazing person."

That said, Olivia definitely did infantalize Natalia in a way, around all the wedding stuff. But again, as viewers we weren't supposed to be comfortable with her taking Natalia's choice and autonomy away, and we were supposed to see it as a symptom of her own fears around being with Natalia and being with a woman.

cagey
 
Like a good Catholic school boy who isn't supposed to swear in front of his mother. That he got to "hell" by the last exchange was a good sign of separating.

I'm such a cynic--my first thought was: gee, the network censors allow characters to use the word "hell" to describe the place, but not as an expletive.

cagey
 
Natalia, for all she loves god, is pretty sure he punishes her for actively seeking happiness. The pouring out of the champagne (the last happy moment with Olivia) and the folding up the tablecloth were very telling.

I don't read it this way at all! I mean, yeah, Natalia isn't happy about Rafe's reaction, but I don't think she feels like God is punishing her. She seems pretty convinced that her feelings for Olivia are good, and make her happy, and are a good way to live her life. I'm not saying Rafe's comments about hell didn't get to her, but it seemed like she was more upset by his disgust at her vision of the four of them as a happy family. He saw her relationship with Olivia as a selfish thing, involving just the two of them, and Natalia sees it as an open and loving thing, encompassing the children and the community (remember her not wanting to hide away in the spa for the rest of their lives?).

As for the tablecloth, I thought that moment was so beautiful. Sad, yes, but they were folding it together. Doing this tiny domestic task as a pair. Not withdrawing from each other, not neglecting their relationship and their shared domestic space, even as it is under attack from Rafe. And what a HUGE evolution from Olivia, who just a week or two ago was giving Natalia space to deal with Rafe. Now she's staying put by Natalia's side, even if Natalia doesn't know where she's at with the relationship.
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ekny
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abzug
 
Gee, it's starting to feel like we all have a type on this board. :-)

Whoa. No shit. I saw those back to back & was a little--geez. Okay. Roger that.

That is by far the funniest one-liner I've seen in quite a while. Dunno why but those first shots & then the comment. Ba-dum-bump.


I can see I'll need to check in more frequently: again, no updates in my email box all weekend, how frustrating. Running through oldest to most-recent:

--the two-shot of both actors touching their mouths. Not to be all um, myself, but: we've seen this very often in the past, it's a cliche of the lesbian screen-kiss, far as I'm concerned. Doesn't mean some people don't pull it off better than others.

--the business with Nat not needing Olivia now that Rafe's home squicked me. This show has a real weird sexual undercurrent with incestuous families. I'd rather Rafe just went off to daddy Frank & bonded over a beer. Bottle.

--Couldn't agree with Jeanna's sentiments more, re soaps.

-- I do think there's a component to Nat that's worried abt selfishness, that's where Rafe's attack could be most successful--because it's not like she hasn't thought about the hell thing: that's not the issue, any more (if ever it was). But I did feel JL's delivery needed more backbone. Olivia has it to spare, all Nat has to do is ask. The scriptwriting was fine, hit all the major beats.

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More Frank hatred: how could you be so careless!
Um well, they were shagging in the middle of their yard with their 8-year-old in the house. What do you *think* this poor beleagured 19-year-old "man" SAW, you sanctimonious dickhead? A <shockhorror> kiss? We should be so lucky. <sigh> Keep me away from Frank. Far, far away. //minirant


What's up with this fuss over the CBS poll? I find it difficult to credit. Not because network execs aren't both evil AND stupid, but because I fail to see any remaining motivation for CBS to spike this part of the storyline. They've already shitcanned the program. And their primary advertiser owns the effing thing. So where's the profit? This relationship is hotter than eggs on an August sidewalk right now. I don't believe that kind of homophobia motivates these people: only money. A kiss is hardly a BFD in this day & age. So... the whole thing seems more than a bit paranoid, to me.



ETA: speaking of callbacks: Olivia's delivery at the spa, where she says It must be nice to be so sure: Helen Shaver's scene in Desert Hearts. --e
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abzug
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ekny
 
But I did feel JL's delivery needed more backbone. Olivia has it to spare, all Nat has to do is ask. The scriptwriting was fine, hit all the major beats.

I didn't mind her somewhat flexible backbone in this scene, because afterwards she said to Olivia that she felt like she didn't explain herself to Rafe as well as she wanted to. She's getting practice at this, and trying to hold her own while she's still figuring out what that is. It feels natural to the character, that she's not yet where she wants and needs to be, but she knows where she's heading, and what it's going to take to get there.

As for the scriptwriting hitting the major beats, I think the scene with Rafe is one of those great examples of how this story can touch on basically every gay issue, because it has so much time to explore everything. Nothing is rushed on a soap (in fact, it's always the opposite) and in the case of this story that is enabling the kind of vast, textured exploration of homophobia and the self, the family and the community which you'd only otherwise get in a novel, since prime time tv and films just aren't long enough to get there.

So, anyway, just a "Yay!" for the soap format using its strengths to do a great job on a gay storyline.
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Jeanna
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Abzug:

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She seems pretty convinced that her feelings for Olivia are good, and make her happy, and are a good way to live her life. I'm not saying Rafe's comments about hell didn't get to her, but it seemed like she was more upset by his disgust at her vision of the four of them as a happy family. He saw her relationship with Olivia as a selfish thing, involving just the two of them, and Natalia sees it as an open and loving thing, encompassing the children and the community


Yes, that's right. And she was SO happy. Finally. It's like someone kicked a puppy. But, I do believe, that's where JLH wants to end this...with community acceptance and "only love" saving the world and Springfield, whether it's in standing against Alan Spaulding's prejudice and machinations (and, hopefully, with the help of his own son, Liv's ex) or the 'outside' world as well.

Quote:
 
As for the tablecloth, I thought that moment was so beautiful. Sad, yes, but they were folding it together. Doing this tiny domestic task as a pair. Not withdrawing from each other, not neglecting their relationship and their shared domestic space, even as it is under attack from Rafe. And what a HUGE evolution from Olivia, who just a week or two ago was giving Natalia space to deal with Rafe. Now she's staying put by Natalia's side, even if Natalia doesn't know where she's at with the relationship.



Beautiful. *It's Abzug Love Today* *hug* Heaves big sigh of contentment.

ekny:

Quote:
 
it's a cliche of the lesbian screen-kiss, far as I'm concerned. Doesn't mean some people don't pull it off better than others.


Some people who are charismatic, intelligent actresses who understand the role completely and are masterful at conveying every nuance. Yes.

Quote:
 
I do think there's a component to Nat that's worried abt selfishness, that's where Rafe's attack could be most successful


Agree. And is this push/pull, placating the son she raised, wanting and needing (the word she used, other than love and "in love" to her son regarding Olivia) the woman she loves...will this be what precipitates the rumored "illness" (stress related? nervous breakdown even?) that will be used to explain Natalia's absence for the month of JL's maternity leave?

Agreed on Frank. What did he think Rafe saw for heaven's sake? Other than the natural affection they were showing, outwardly nothing really untoward between two BFF's, but clearly a romantic moment between two people in love in their own little bubble. In which he didn't exist for the moment.

About the CBS poll...I have no idea what the motivations would be of whomever is attempting to manipulate it...christian right-wingers, whatever...but the fascinating thing to me is that other questions regarding other soaps on the same page had a few hundred responses while this poll, on a cancelled soap with supposedly far fewer viewers and low in the ratings, zoomed through the roof into the tens of thousands after initially being very heavily favorable in support of Otalia as a couple to become skewed the other way.

And, yeh, I think someone has definitely seen "Desert Hearts."

Abzug:

Quote:
 
I didn't mind her somewhat flexible backbone in this scene, because afterwards she said to Olivia that she felt like she didn't explain herself to Rafe as well as she wanted to. She's getting practice at this, and trying to hold her own while she's still figuring out what that is. It feels natural to the character, that she's not yet where she wants and needs to be, but she knows where she's heading, and what it's going to take to get there.


Agree. Personally, I thought JL's very modest, low-key, gentle, less is more style (in this instance) in playing this role was more quietly powerful here than a yelling match between mother and son would have been (maybe that will come in the future, don't know) but I thought she hit every note just right, quietly, but steadfastly. And as an actress she let him have his dramatic moment. The only thing I would have added to what she said to him was to remind him that he lit one of those candles for her--in hopes of finding her heart's desire.

Quote:
 
As for the scriptwriting hitting the major beats, I think the scene with Rafe is one of those great examples of how this story can touch on basically every gay issue, because it has so much time to explore everything. Nothing is rushed on a soap (in fact, it's always the opposite) and in the case of this story that is enabling the kind of vast, textured exploration of homophobia and the self, the family and the community which you'd only otherwise get in a novel, since prime time tv and films just aren't long enough to get there.

So, anyway, just a "Yay!" for the soap format using its strengths to do a great job on a gay storyline.


Totally agree. And the termination will speed things up a bit, or so they say, but leave us reflecting on what a shame it is that we will be robbed of having seen this play out even more fully over time.
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abzug
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I don't like the days when they're not on. I guess we were spoiled, five weekdays in a row. Oh well. Gave me time to practice the uke tonight.
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cagey
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abzug
 
She seems pretty convinced that her feelings for Olivia are good, and make her happy, and are a good way to live her life. I'm not saying Rafe's comments about hell didn't get to her, but it seemed like she was more upset by his disgust at her vision of the four of them as a happy family. He saw her relationship with Olivia as a selfish thing, involving just the two of them, and Natalia sees it as an open and loving thing, encompassing the children and the community


jeanna
 
But, I do believe, that's where JLH wants to end this...with community acceptance and "only love" saving the world and Springfield, whether it's in standing against Alan Spaulding's prejudice and machinations (and, hopefully, with the help of his own son, Liv's ex) or the 'outside' world as well.


I have this nagging sense that one of the reasons Natalia has been having such a hard time with telling Rafe is that she has set up in her mind that this relationship is not about Nat loves Liv but it is instead about Happy Families. Now I totally agree that JLH and all GL is heading into the Happy Family barn - cause that is what this entire soap is about, the strength and support of a Family - but something that Natalia in particular, and to an extent Natalia and Olivia have to deal with is being worthy, as individuals, of being loved.

So when Rafe calls her on being selfish, he is absolutely right. I am looking forward to Natalia actually claiming the right to love Olivia. Love Olivia as a duet, not as part of a quartet. Both of our protagonists have a history of low self-esteem and a general refusal to believe they can be loved for themselves. Olivia must learn the lesson of generosity in giving her love to Natalia; Natalia must learn to graciously receive the gift. And vice versa.

And in that sense, I agree with abzug about the tablecloth folding. It was an action taken in unison; I just wish there wasn't an entire picnic table separating them.

ekny
 
Whoa. No shit. I saw those back to back & was a little--geez. Okay. Roger that.


We've got that settled then? ;)

Can someone enlighten me regarding this CBS poll? Only poll I know about is the daily GL poll, which is like the guiltytracker - Should Remy turn over the diamonds?

Incestuous family life in soaps: not to say I have a lot of credibility here, but much could be written about the Mother/Son relationship in soaps. This is another aspect of the Otalia storyline that I think might benefit from the cancellation. Is it just me, or do generally in soaps, daughters hate their mothers who dote on their sons? But I have to agree with ekny that the Natalia/Rafe thing has been a bit queasy making all along - and it doesn't just have to do with the relative ages of the actors.

abzug
 
So, anyway, just a "Yay!" for the soap format using its strengths to do a great job on a gay storyline.


I keep coming back to the potency of the serial narrative in story telling. Whatever one's objections are to the style of writing or acting, the fact that it has a near endless length of time to tell a story allows for a depth of character and feeling that you just don't get outside of very large novels (just to agree again).

I am also struck by how, as a lesbian viewer of mainstream media, I often view at a distance and make my own adjustments in how I receive the sl so I can put up with, well, heterosexual love and desire. I certainly used that distance when I first did watch a soap, be it Dark Shadows or AMC back in 1970 (and gee whiz didn't those marketers at ABC know what they were doing since it seems our entire demographic watched one or both of those shows) made the stilted performance , questionable production values and staid soap conventions easy to ignore. I certainly had no interest with Phil or Chuck, I only remembered Tara; or Victoria.

As Jeanna said, it is a pleasure to watch something wherein those filters do not have to be immediately applied. And as ekny is known to lament, it is so sad that the filters must be applied and there is not more opportunity to watch or listen to our stories, because human beings like stories, without sifting through for table scraps.
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ekny
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just wanted to say that was a particularly thoughtful, even-handed (& rather elegiac) post and i really enjoyed reading it.
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marymartin
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Here is a link to the CBS poll. It started out with 97 percent in favor of Olivia and Natalia taking their relationship to the next level. Then it skewed violently in a matter of hours the other way and there was suspicion of robot voting. It seems to have leveled off since then. Right now it is 80 percent 'yes'. If you have time, go vote. You can vote multiple times.

http://cbs.soapsindepth.com/talkback/polls/instantpoll.asp

Question for all of you. Is there anyone here who thinks Guiding Light is going to be picked up? I am trying to make some friends of mine accept reality and it's like hitting my head against a wall. If Crystal Chappell has taken a new job, to me that is all the confirmation I need to know that GL is done, or if it's not done, Otalia is. Just hope they give the fans a happy ending when the show exits CBS in September. Anything less would be a huge slap in the face of a large group of vocal and active supporters who have been working their a**** off for the show's survival.
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marymartin
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I have this nagging sense that one of the reasons Natalia has been having such a hard time with telling Rafe is that she has set up in her mind that this relationship is not about Nat loves Liv but it is instead about Happy Families.  Now I totally agree that JLH and all GL is heading into the Happy Family barn - cause that is what this entire soap is about, the strength and support of a Family - but something that Natalia in particular, and to an extent Natalia and Olivia have to deal with is being worthy, as individuals, of being loved.


I totally agree with you on this. I have hope though, that Natalia will let go of making Rafe part of a happy family and follow her heart (after the maternity leave), since she put herself first in April by leaving Frank at the alter. Rafe will accept them in his own good time because I cannot imagine Natalia being permanently estranged from her son and moving forward with Olivia. I am more than a little tired of her character being perceived as the 'bad one' for not dropping everyone and everything to reassure Olivia of her love by some fans. Frankly, the way this character has been conceived and written, in my mind she has come light years since she finally accepted she was in love with Olivia. So far, she has not backed down to all the objections she has gotten from everyone who knows about the relationship, and unlike Olivia, I can't think of anyone she has confided in about them who has been supportive. I mean, heck, even Doris unloaded on her and she supposedly believes in true love and wants them to be a couple.
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Jeanna
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marymartin
Jun 17 2009, 08:26 AM

Question for all of you.  Is there anyone here who thinks Guiding Light is going to be picked up?  I am trying to make some friends of mine accept reality and it's like hitting my head against a wall.  If Crystal Chappell has taken a new job, to me that is all the confirmation I need to know that GL is done, or if it's not done, Otalia is.  Just hope they give the fans a happy ending when the show exits CBS in September.  Anything less would be a huge slap in the face of a large group of vocal and active supporters who have been working their a**** off for the show's survival.

I thought it was unlikely since April 1st, but then when there was talk of P&G and Telenext not wanting to just let it go and shopping it around I thought maybe there was some glimmer of hope. Last day of shooting is Aug. 22nd. I just don't see it happening. The actors tried their best to get out the word and be optimistic, but from what I hear, they've accepted their fate. And the lucky few in demand like CC are going right back to work a few days after they wrap on the show, literally. She'll start shooting Days right away. IF an offer had come in to continue GL then she could have opted to stay, but as the clock ticks down... She tried her best to save the show and then to save their storyline by suggesting they move them to ATWT and was "shot down" and took the other job. She wants to work with JL again and there are rumors they'd do something on the webseries she and her friend Kim are writing. Other than that...

And, of course, I totally agree with you about the rest of that statement.
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molsongrrrl
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Question for all of you. Is there anyone here who thinks Guiding Light is going to be picked up?


GL is a dead soap walking. It will not be picked up. I'd guess the actors were told as much - or otherwise CC wouldn't have signed with DOOL (and probably wouldn't have been able to). Besides there are a ton of reports out there indicating GT is close to a deal with OLTL and then some other actors on GL moving to ATWT - so yeah GL is dead.



Quote:
 
I am more than a little tired of her character being perceived as the 'bad one' for not dropping everyone and everything to reassure Olivia of her love by some fans.


I'm tired of it too - even when I feel that about her myself sometimes! It's the nature of the beast though. Natalia is the one driving the bus on the relationship. She's been controlling the pace etc. So yeah when she puts the brakes on - she's perceived as "the bad one." But to be fair - she's also done a lot of emotional whip lash to Olivia. First, she wants Olivia and Jellybean to move back into the FoL - Liv finally comes around to that way of thinking ... and Nat changes her mind. Not saying she didn't have good reasons - just saying from Olivia's point of view ... ouch!

But yes, the Christian Tortoise has come light years. I think sometimes people forget just how far she's come. Certainly, this storyline has been going on for over a year, but its only been months since declarations of love. And if we look at how Natalia reacted to what people were thinking about her and Olivia after the my 2 mommies presentation - and how she is standing up for her feelings now - she's changed pretty quickly. I mean the presentation storyline was in January - we are only in June. That's good progress!
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cagey
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Thanks for the link on the cbs poll. Cbs has all sorts of polls running - I would say it is all about the marketing and the hype. Engaging the viewers and making them feel participatory; guess it worked on this question. ;)

jeanna
 
I thought it was unlikely since April 1st, but then when there was talk of P&G and Telenext not wanting to just let it go and shopping it around I thought maybe there was some glimmer of hope. Last day of shooting is Aug. 22nd.


Not to spread panic, but I thought I saw something about CC's last day being 8 August? Please tell me I am wrong.

In either case, I am not worried that the sl will end poorly. It may be more chaste than some of us would like, but I don't think either one of them is going to retreat from their being in love. When you back out of the Otalia box long enough to read various reports about the other storylines and characters, it is clear that they are wrapping things up - there being no point to creating a cliffhanger or a tragic ending to 72 years of storytelling.
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abzug
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So far, she has not backed down to all the objections she has gotten from everyone who knows about the relationship, and unlike Olivia, I can't think of anyone she has confided in about them who has been supportive. I mean, heck, even Doris unloaded on her and she supposedly believes in true love and wants them to be a couple.

Good point. In a way, Natalia could be viewed as more heroic (regarding this relationship) than Olivia. Unlike Olivia, once Natalia accepted her feelings, she's been working for the relationship 100% of the time, and being open and honest about her feelings. Yes, she changes pace all the time, but she's always moving in the same direction. In contrast, Olivia knew she was in love with Natalia, and yet didn't communicate how she was feeling to Natalia, and in fact pushed Natalia away from the relationship. Olivia told others about her feelings, but had a hard time standing up for the feelings when others reacted. Natalia has shown her stubborn streak quite admirably in conversations with both Father Ray and Rafe.

Only Doris has seemed to be able to silence Natalia. Which is kind of interesting in its own right. Doris silences Natalia because she is TOO supportive of the relationship. She assumes too much, openly identifying Natalia as gay, for instance (by using the phrase 'coming out'). So it's like Natalia just does NOT like being pushed or pulled faster than she wants to go, or in a direction she doesn't want to go. She's on her path, she's moving at her own pace. And she's remarkably consistent in that.

cagey
 
I am looking forward to Natalia actually claiming the right to love Olivia. Love Olivia as a duet, not as part of a quartet. Both of our protagonists have a history of low self-esteem and a general refusal to believe they can be loved for themselves. Olivia must learn the lesson of generosity in giving her love to Natalia; Natalia must learn to graciously receive the gift. And vice versa.

This has got to be the direction they're heading in. I mean, they've laid the groundwork so clearly, and one thing you can say for this storyline's anvils: they're always dropped for a reason.

cagey
 
And in that sense, I agree with abzug about the tablecloth folding. It was an action taken in unison; I just wish there wasn't an entire picnic table separating them.

Of course emotionally I agree with you. But as an analyzer of media, I have to cheer for the table. It was the embodiment of their emotional state at the moment. The melancholy of the scene arose from the table, and how much every viewer wished it wasn't there. Without it, they could have touched or hugged, and that wouldn't have been a fair ending for this episode, given what Natalia has just gone through. There is a gulf between them right now, but Olivia's not letting that scare her away. She's going to help fold the tablecloth, and send as much eye-love Natalia's way as she possibly can (and Crystal Chappell has eye-love superpowers, so she can send quite a lot).
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Jeanna
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cagey
Jun 17 2009, 09:32 AM

Not to spread panic, but I thought I saw something about CC's last day being 8 August? Please tell me I am wrong.


I haven't seen or heard that yet. But I was figuring it just might be earlier in her case. Doesn't mean she won't be on the final show on Sept. 18th though.
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marymartin
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Jeanna
Jun 17 2009, 03:05 PM
cagey
Jun 17 2009, 09:32 AM

Not to spread panic, but I thought I saw something about CC's last day being 8 August?  Please tell me I am wrong.


I haven't seen or heard that yet. But I was figuring it just might be earlier in her case. Doesn't mean she won't be on the final show on Sept. 18th though.

I think everyone will be shooting until the end of August -- I had heard the 25th for the last day. Then a wrap party. CC starts shooting DOOL in September with her first shows to air in October. With Jessica returning in July, the 8th seems way too soon if they are going to have much time to shoot scenes together. I doubt that this rumor is true. She is under contract to Guiding Light and I expect she will be involved up until the end. I imagine all the actors are done after August 25th to pursue new ventures.
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