Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]
Welcome to Nikki And Helen. We hope you enjoy your visit.


You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.


Join our community!


If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,232 Views)
abzug
Member Avatar
In love with a prisoner
Since this IS a Bad Girls message board, I figured everyone should see this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pko5HFe9X-E
It doesn't quite work, and certainly isn't as funny as the one where Hitler finds out Olivia and Natalia aren't going to kiss (again, speculation, not fact), but still amusing.
Visit the Bad Girls Annex!

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cagey
Member Avatar
G3 Curtain and Duvet!
Thanks for the Thumb Ring lesson, Traveller.

What do I know? All I ever knew was pinky rings.

But that interview with CC - so interesting vocally, you think? That wasn't Olivia talking, and I think Olivia has talked on some of the pod-casts. I was waiting for a vocal upturn "ya know?" Maybe there was one in there.

Oh goodness the Sad Girls meet Otalia: the writing was spot on. "I have assurance". "I am still number one". I thought it was just where we are right now.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
traveller
Member Avatar
G2 landing
Cagey
Quote:
 
What do I know? All I ever knew was pinky rings.


Yeah, I'm of the pinky ring generation but my young female friends say I must keep up with the latest trends. HA!

Quote:
 
But that interview with CC - so interesting vocally, you think?

Oh yeah .... I think !! Love the bit at the end when interviewer asked her what designer she was wearing... Nicole Miller I love her and CC said "I do too" rollerd her eyes and smiled. All I thought was ... Valley Girl LOLLL
Definitely not Olivia which is a very good thing.

I find it so disappointing when an actor is interviewed and what you get in RL is the same thing you see on the screen or stage. Makes me question their acting ability. One actress that comes to mind is Julia Roberts. Always the same in every movie but the studios ensure she has a brilliant cast behind her. My personal opinion of course .. I find her highly over rated.
Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood ..... Helen Keller

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent .... Eleanor Roosevelt

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ekny
No Avatar
In love with a prisoner
abzug
Aug 31 2009, 11:13 PM
Since this IS a Bad Girls message board, I figured everyone should see this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pko5HFe9X-E
It doesn't quite work, and certainly isn't as funny as the one where Hitler finds out Olivia and Natalia aren't going to kiss (again, speculation, not fact), but still amusing.

No, it doesn't (and we're overlapping AGAIN! :D I just emailed you abt this--well, an hour or more ago, dial-up is like soap-time), but it's prob the best cross-over fanvid we're likely to see for BG/GL. Not that I need to see any.

Prob for me was the 'competition' theme which was so unnecessary. Just stupid & kind of embarrassing. (And frankly a real turn-off for me, both as a dyke and a BG person.) She had the riot thing, which was perfect; she had the let's show 'em how it's done, which is entirely to the point. AND the UK/US divide. So leave it at that, those are enough themes for a 5-minute video already. I'd have cut back to actual riot shots at the end, with Maxi or someone starting it with yet-another dastardly spoiler, and cut back to them, still kissing, with Nikki saying: they're probably rioting out there, you know, and H replying: sod it, let them, & going back for a brief replay (maybe take out some earlier frames so as to not repeat the whole kiss, which drives me nuts about fan-vids).

The Hitler one is good albeit problematic (Hitler bitching about no same-sex kissing is just a little too, uh, ahistoric for my comfort level). A very good one was made about the delayed release of HP7; and the best of the lot (that i've seen anyway...), called Downfall of Grammar, where the lip-sync, gestures, and theme are all appropriate & spot-on. And unlike most everything else, the person who made it assumes we'll all get the joke, so doesn't bother spelling it out because that *is* the point. (Also: clearly bilingual, so the subtitles are just deadly accurate-feeling, somehow.)
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
abzug
Member Avatar
In love with a prisoner
I had another thought about yesterday's episode. It's not all that deep, and everyone else probably noticed it, but the episode happened in the reverse of Nat and Liv's first date (the dinner after the church). In the first date, they ate at Towers, and then wound up outside Olivia's door. In yesterday's episode, they started outside Olivia's door, and wound up at Towers, at the same table, in the same seats.

In terms of why this is significant, I had two thoughts: first, they're essentially rewinding back to the point where things could have gone in a different direction, and then are taking them in that different direction. These two are ready to cross the threshold now, unlike back on that first date. Second thought was the contrast between them not knowing what to say on that first date, saying things like "banana pancakes" and talking about work, rather than talking about the feelings they were having and what they meant. Yesterday, they spoke as directly and explicitly as they ever have (Nat in particular, but even Liv), so by staging it in the same location, in the same way, they're emphasizing how far these two have progressed emotionally since April. (Not far enough for us lesbian viewers of course!)

As for the Hitler video, I guess it was the total histrionic aspect of it, taking the evillest man of the last century, and making his violent murderous rage akin to fan reaction to Otalia, and what that says about how invested fans get (TOO invested perhaps?), which really appealed to me.
Visit the Bad Girls Annex!

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cagey
Member Avatar
G3 Curtain and Duvet!
abzug your odd thoughts in the morning are way better than mine. My favorite image from yesterday's ep was the mirror shot of Olivia - that was a clear "things being said here are not the truth" statement.

I have figured out Olivia's animosity towards Frank's baby. :D

Back at the spa Olivia made a very peculiar declaration of why she chooses Natalia: because Nat is the most nurturing person she had ever known.

Yep, Olivia wants a mother. No wonder she can't trust Natalia - she came back, but she came back pregnant. Olivia's real rival is the Baby. No wonder she couldn't bring herself to go shopping for *maternity* wear with Natalia - just another painful reminder of her rival's imminent appearance.

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
abzug
Member Avatar
In love with a prisoner
Oooh, I like it! Baby as rival. Very nice. And definitely true, given Olivia's mother issues.

I had noticed the mirror scene too--I'm with your reading of this scene, but then how does it fit with the other mirror scenes:
1. Nat trying on the wedding dress
2. Nat puking in the bathroom at Company
Are all of them working with similar meaning? That in every case, the surface of things is not the truth? That there's some level of conflict between outward appearances and inner emotion? I can see that for the wedding dress scene, in a way, but I could also read it 180 degrees the other way, and say that the mirror is what enabled the two of them to see the truth (Nat as bride, Liv as groom, with deep love between the two) which they couldn't/wouldn't see before. In which case the mirror is actually the truth-finder, or something. That jives with the scene in the bathroom of Company as well.
Visit the Bad Girls Annex!

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ekny
No Avatar
In love with a prisoner
I love this board. Seriously. Because I woke up with similar thoughts, in an ekny-kinda way. I woke up thinking: yesterday's scene was just plain disappointing. CC's done better work; she didn't get many reactions shots, but mainly she looked like I felt: bored, a bit irritated or impatient. What she should have looked is any/all combination of things such as: incredulous (Nat is doing this, here?); pissed (Nat is doing this--here?!), amused, charmed, or even a bit scared.

As for JL, she just read her lines & that was that. What I should have seen was: a bit of hesitancy or fear after the initial line (which was the only good one, about this not-being-friendship); utter conviction but again, with a trace of something else (anything) levening it; a change of tone around what Liv's eyes are telling her.

That scene should have been, if not a real show-stopper, at least *moving* in some way. Exciting, gratifying, seductive. Instead we have Nat lecturing Olivia, hectoring her: nagging her.

So you might be right, both of you, since we know Liv has mommy issues. But lesbians with mommy issues--these *kind* of mommy issues--just squick me. If I'd been sitting there with someone talking to me in that tone, I'd have found it: rude, irritating, presumptuous, and offputting. There was no sexy there, and nothing remotely seductive. And I would have sat there like the Gary Larson dog with the person saying BlahblahblahblahFOODblahblah blahblahWALKblah.

Possibly I'm missing some deep reason why there's nothing coming off Olivia in this scene, but... I definitely didn't see it: the dawning miraculous sense that she's liking this & is so busted & so forth. So frankly, I'd rather vote off the mommy-issues and view Olivia's reaction shots (or lack thereof) as an indication that Bossy Nat isn't doing it for her in *this* way, in this venue. We've seen Bossy Nat be effective in other places (No--you wait). But not here.

Conclusion: however unnuanced JL's delivery was, however lacking, CC's acting is deliberate. Olivia is mainly just embarrassed at Nat's behavior. Therefore she doesn't have mommy issues in *quite* this way. (Although she might, around the baby.) Finger-shaking-Nat is not doing the trick. Nagging!Nat is not a turn-on.

Olivia requires public acknowledgement. That is the only thing that's going to do it, at this point.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cagey
Member Avatar
G3 Curtain and Duvet!
abzug
 
Are all of them working with similar meaning? That in every case, the surface of things is not the truth? That there's some level of conflict between outward appearances and inner emotion? I can see that for the wedding dress scene, in a way, but I could also read it 180 degrees the other way, and say that the mirror is what enabled the two of them to see the truth (Nat as bride, Liv as groom, with deep love between the two) which they couldn't/wouldn't see before. In which case the mirror is actually the truth-finder, or something. That jives with the scene in the bathroom of Company as well.


We could get into quite a mirror discussion, if only cause ekny and I have distinctly different approaches to mirrors. I tend towards mirrors revealing the other side as well as reflecting what isn't seen. So the wedding dress frames them as a couple, as what they ought to be or wish to be, but are not. The bathroom is revealing who Natalia really is (pregnant). The mirror with Olivia yesterday also contained her - full length. Isolated her - which is exactly what she is trying to do to herself.

Mommy issues - oh gee, I thought I was making a joke about the baby. I have to disagree a bit about the conversation between Natalia and Olivia yesterday. There does seem to be two ways to view what Natalia is doing, depending on your point of view. Either she is nagging and hectoring or she is trying to engage in negotiation. Nagging and hectoring are really loaded words I think. She is as much in love as Olivia is, so why wouldn't she be throwing herself into Olivia's path at every opportunity? She is not trying to be Olivia's mother, even if that may be what Olivia really wants. She is trying to get Olivia to cross the threshold. Olivia doesn't want to - for all sorts of reasons, none of which she is willing to elaborate on beyond "I can't trust you." In fact, she can't trust anyone.

I did not take at all that Olivia was embarassed or irritated bored or impatient. Well, I could go with impatient. Olivia wants Natalia to stop insisting that they have a future together. Natalia is the one that won't go away.

As for public acknowledgement: Olivia wants the public to acknowledge that she is loved. That's a different animal entirely.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ekny
No Avatar
In love with a prisoner
cagey
Sep 1 2009, 03:47 PM
As for public acknowledgement:  Olivia wants the public to acknowledge that she is loved.  That's a different animal entirely.

How is it different?

cagey
 
We could get into quite a mirror discussion, if only cause ekny and I have distinctly different approaches to mirrors.  I tend towards mirrors revealing the other side as well as reflecting what isn't seen.

I'm sorry: I don't know what this means...? I have no static 'reading' of mirrors. They take their meaning from context.

I have yet to see any evidence that GL is consistently-enough put together to merit that kind of analysis, is all. The comments here are interesting to me, but I'm not willing to bend my brain around this that way, because I simply don't think it deserves or has earned that: it's not coherent enough for a coherent reading of that depth.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
cagey
Member Avatar
G3 Curtain and Duvet!
Today in Springfield: Philip wants what he wants when he wants it. That must be the trait he shares with Olivia. I had no idea Reva originally came to Springfield at the behest of Alan explicitly to break up Billy and Vanessa. There really only are 3 soap plots. But we are all about the second (third, tenth) chances. All the episodes are feeling like just waiting to pick up the last paycheck.

Sorry ekny, perhaps we are saying the same thing about public acknowledgment. I thought you meant that Olivia requires from Natalia a public statement of her love.

I think Olivia needs the people at large to see that she is truly beloved by a worthy person. It is not enough just for her to know it, she needs the rest of the world to know it - and find it a good thing.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
solitasolano
Member Avatar

The Muppets!




Morning YT inspired by the original "I can't",
and Olivia's going to eventually give in.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
marymartin
Member Avatar
The ghost of Larkhall!
solitasolano
Sep 2 2009, 06:29 AM
Olivia's going to eventually give in.

Of course she is. This is a soap opera. If Olivia's daughter (Ava) can forgive her mother for trying to have her killed and learn to trust and love her, if Olivia's love can forgive her for trying to steal her husband and learn to trust and love her, Olivia can forgive Natalia for running (Something Olivia herself did both times when she found out she was pregnant) and work together to build a bridge of trust. Neither woman is going to be happy without the other. That is the whole premise of "Otalia is endgame" even when the writers/producers/network are too candy assed to show the natural progression of this kind of love.
"Thomas is gorgeous. He's everything you would want in a man. But I want a woman."
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
ekny
No Avatar
In love with a prisoner
I was going out for an innocent walk, I swear. Fall day, hot sun cool breeze blue skies, whole nine yards. So screw it, I closed shop for 15 minutes, go grab a healthful 32oz go-cup o Pepsi at the gas station 3 blocks away. Hey--they cost a buck, we'll call it dinner. Working off 4 hours sleep, make nice with the crazy lady.

Instead my head is crowded with things about this damn show which I was quite, quite sure I was done thinking about. I had a whole discussion (again) with Cagey about why this is not art, in which I explained to her that our difference of opinion was actually fairly serious, since she was concerned with the means of production and I was only concerned with the end-result, the thing in itself, finished, ie art. (Which is one of the reasons soaps don't qualify as such, another being that by definition they have no integrity.) Then I hoped Abzug would have lots of thoughts as to why this failed from a political/feminist point of view and hoped she would explain things to me like why lesbians are, still, much to my surprise anyway, really this threatening which it's awfully hard to understand how that can be seeing as this was a not a lesbian storyline now was it and one of the most sexually shall we say viable actors on daytime was effectively neutered during said non-storyline etc but as for myself... I keep trying to think about why this failed from a storytelling point of view.

I kept hearing: It's reality, Jim, but not as we know it.

Questions of the marketplace, advertising, networks, market-share, ad infinitum to the side (and I know they are very much *not* to the side but neither are they my bailiwick), I found myself thinking two things. Mainly. During this walk. Which I am now summarizing so my head doesn't go bluey well more than usual anyway. The first is that the story became compromised, in one way, similarly to how the L-word became compromised ie every media vehicle is vulnerable to the ego of its writer(s) and producer(s). This is why you need a team; it's why Buffy was so effectively written over such a long period of time. No one can be perfect for seven years. But the Buffy 'team' model seems a lot healthier than what we've seen from IC or EW.

Because the writer/producer (and yes I am assuming this should be laid at Ellen Wheeler's doorstep) stopped taking feedback from outside that was critical or negative, a long time ago, is my guess. For reasons of pure ego alone (a level of arrogance I find astonishing but which I am assured is par for the course in the media arts where thick skins are the only way to survive) she simply refused to consider whether the road decided upon was in fact the optimal road *for the story*. The certainty that this planned-out storyline, this Agenda, was *in the best interests of the audience* has always, always been a problem. But was it in the best interests of the characters and the story itself?

(Why do I assume this was deliberate & ego-driven? Because no one could be that tone-deaf to audience and media response, otherwise.)

Refusing to allow the story to go where it needed to go in order to--whatever, actualize itself, play itself out in a true fashion--was not only a disservice and a way of disrespecting the audience, but it did the same to the story itself. (Which given the structure of soaps is precisely why they are not art, can never be art, and are inherently untrustworthy.) This kind of colossal arrogance can only happen with a 'risky' storyline; an underrepresented group than cannot represent itself. (One of many reasons I am not planning to watch Venice: however well-intentioned CC is--and I believe she is very well-intentioned, I really do--this is a woman who didn't even know exactly how straight it is, to call someone "an open lesbian" or "openly gay" as opposed to, uh, out--as little as a few weeks ago. That's very Hollywood, and an understandable mistake, not a super big-deal, but neither is it reassuring. Fact is--whether it's IC & her merry band of mauraders making some of the worst TV in history, or a bunch of weird-ass straight people doing this even weirder Christian soap goes Mister Rogers Neighborhood Let's Visit the Gays Down the Street!--the only way to guarantee a project works is to tell the *stories* with integrity and not WORRY about the fucking audience.)

The Christianity of this soap has always been *extra*-problematic. It lectures us. It preaches at us, it moralizes. It is *sure* it knows what's best for us, the audience. The problem: the audience isn't out there. It's not us. It's not "them". It's not even the beleagured housewives in Butte. There *is* a storyteller here--and a production team, and CBS, yesyesyes--but the audience is in *their* heads. And by the end, that's the only place it is. Everyone else has gone home.

Ok, my 15-minute break has now stretched to half an hour. Back to work for me, I guess we'll call it lunch. I could shape this more carefully but that's my brain-dump for today, ignore whatever doesn't work for you.


...Whether or not one is of the opinion the soap is a 'valid' form of media, its day has come and gone. So has networks'. There's a reason the telenova is hot. It's far better-suited for people's daily schedules, the realities of their lives 30, 40 years on from when these soap things were at their height, as I gather. The Brits have been doing high-IQ mini-series for decades. They suit my viewing needs. They are like entertaining mid-level novels. I don't have to get married to them, I don't need a concordance to follow along, they're enjoyable when they're well-done, and often, they're superbly well-done... because you can shape the product, have some say over the story's trajectory, and not be as horribly vulnerable to oversight, perhaps: it's a package, a one-shot concept. You sell the package, you make it. Move on to the next thing.

The problem isn't just with soaps: it's with a form of narrative storytelling on network tv that hasn't been viable for at least a decade. And given the mess GL made of this simple, simple story, I don't really see why we should defend a method of storytelling that's clearly outlived its century. (The other problem is so entrenched it's hard to see unless you see a lot of non-US television [which hello most of us do]: just how incredibly parochial this country is around sexual mores, and how terribly behind the times. At least 25 years by European standards, is my best guess.)

The reality, Jim, is reality-TV. Because that's how corrupt network is. <shrug> This? Not a model I need to defend. There's no storytelling there at all, as such. I've overheard AA meetings that were more real. Someone wants to go meta on reality tv, that's fine. I'd rather go for another walk.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
abzug
Member Avatar
In love with a prisoner
ekny
 
This is why you need a team; it's why Buffy was so effectively written over such a long period of time. No one can be perfect for seven years. But the Buffy 'team' model seems a lot healthier than what we've seen from IC or EW.

TLW and GL also have writing teams. Whether they function effectively or not is another question, but IC didn't write all (or most) of TLW eps, and EW doesn't write all of the GL eps (it wouldn't even be humanly possible). As with all leaders, they can either welcome dissent and debate, or they can silence it. I don't know if we'll ever know what went wrong with the Otalia storyline, or whose fault it is. Maybe it flourished when it was EW's baby, and then when she had other fish to fry (like, say, resolving 72 years worth of storylines) she delegated it and couldn't oversee it effectively. Who knows.

ekny
 
One of many reasons I am not planning to watch Venice: however well-intentioned CC is--and I believe she is very well-intentioned, I really do--this is a woman who didn't even know exactly how straight it is, to call someone "an open lesbian" or "openly gay" as opposed to, uh, out--as little as a few weeks ago. That's very Hollywood, and an understandable mistake, not a super big-deal, but neither is it reassuring. Fact is--whether it's IC & her merry band of mauraders making some of the worst TV in history, or a bunch of weird-ass straight people doing this even weirder Christian soap goes Mister Rogers Neighborhood Let's Visit the Gays Down the Street!--the only way to guarantee a project works is to tell the *stories* with integrity and not WORRY about the fucking audience.

So is your problem that CC isn't gay or that she cares too much what the audience thinks? Because IC and her team were pretty much all gay, and look where it got them. And unlike on GL, her writing and producing team for Venice is all gay women (other than her), not straight women. In the end, if someone is an artist, then they have a chance of doing a good job. If they're a hack, then whether the story they tell is gay, straight, black, white, it's going to be a hack job. See IC for proof of this. So I don't necessarily care that CC is straight, or isn't as tuned into gay culture as we might like her to be. I think that will have very little bearing on whether Venice is something I want to watch.

Visit the Bad Girls Annex!

Posted Image
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · The Comfy Sofa · Next Topic »
Add Reply