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| Otalia - Guiding Light | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,228 Views) | |
| ekny | Sep 6 2009, 03:48 AM Post #961 |
In love with a prisoner
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I find myself wondering (and half-convinced), from the many inconsistent things CC has said, about the non-kiss, if one (or more) was/were in fact filmed, but have already been edited out; wondering because it's like she doesn't know, 100%, but all of those times have passed except for perhaps a final token buss on the cheek or whatever. She's been all over the place with that in a variety of interviews, and not, I think, because she's also trying to hew to what her bosses require, in terms of spoilers (or criticism) but also because basically--she just doesn't know/isn't quite sure. |
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| cagey | Sep 6 2009, 04:31 AM Post #962 |
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
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I've had that same impression myself. She can't quite bring herself to say there is no kiss, which I would hardly think matters at this point in time. Here's my question you eagle eyed watchers: what day was it that Olivia removed the goth nail polish? She was back to KleerKote on Friday. Was she still in high dungeon on white pantsuit day?
Some bit I read about soap writing remarked on how soap scripts are littered with little bits and pieces that can be brought up again *years* after they first entered the script. The Grand Gesture might have been one of those. No need to use it immediately, save it for further down the road. But I really dig it that part of the soap viewing experience is making arguments for and against what a character would do; since it is all about the characters and not so much the plot. What a character would expect; how she would react. So the point is not so much whether the writers planned a grand gesture, but that we, as viewers, knowing Olivia as we do would expect that Natalia would need to make a Grand Gesture in order for Olivia to truly believe. If Nat had said something like, "I know you, Olivia, it's enough for me to whisper I love you without letting the rest of the world know," it would not have rung true and we wouldn't be laying bets on what subtle little caress would be the one to bring Olivia to her knees. |
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| solitasolano | Sep 6 2009, 05:19 AM Post #963 |
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While I'd much rather be able to contribute to informed, intelligent, and interesting discussion and analysis of the context, subtext, and whatever of soap art, I'm much better at just plain observing. It's all constructed with magic and mirrors anyways. White pantsuit day: 9/03/09 One episode. Two shooting locations (studio and Peapack). Three different days. Busy and no nail polish. Goth look and the best CC/Olivia pout going. No nail polish and one of cc/Olivia’s 50 ways to cry. Goth nail polish and what’s with the smile? Hey, lookie here: Studio non-goth day. ![]() Peapack and hairdo #1 goth day. ![]() Peapack and hairdo #2 without goth day. ![]() Google <molsongrrrl photobucket> and enjoy the show...TY molsongrrrl |
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| abzug | Sep 6 2009, 01:35 PM Post #964 |
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In love with a prisoner
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Further proof that our attempts to analyze such things are really unwarranted, since the show/CC can't even be bothered to make sure their striking goth nail polish stays on their fingers from scene to scene in an episode. I had one other thought last night, which was that one of the things we often discussed in relation to Helen and Nikki was that they had little-to-no community support for their relationship (Nikki had Babs, Helen had Dominic, sort of), so that when things got derailed, they were really vulnerable, having to rely solely on their own emotional resources to get things back on track. And we talked about how this is not a good thing for a relationship, that BG was actually trying to show this in constructing the story this way. So here we have the opposite on GL, where the influence of the community is HUGELY important, and arguably the key to the relationship surviving (if we consider Liv's conversations with Frank, Philip, Buzz, Lillian etc to be important in her transition from rejecting to loving). So although I've complained that it should have been Nat's efforts which got Liv to change her mind, maybe I'm wrong on that. Maybe it's more interesting and progressive to have the community support bring them back together. It's hard to know whether GL got the right balance between the importance of the characters' love for each other, and the importance of the community's support, but I've got to commend them for trying, I guess. |
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| ekny | Sep 6 2009, 02:49 PM Post #965 |
In love with a prisoner
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Annnnd... from the glass-half-empty school [I woke UP thinking about this this morning, I am just. so. peeved.]--the thread that got cut (20 *pages'*-worth!) over at that other place with the mod nazis was about the politics of coming out when you 1) haven't identified as lesbian 2) are arguably still straight 3) haven't kissed. (I didn't see it and am totally extrapolating. They no doubt articulated the problem somewhat differently.) We never actually discussed it in those terms, which I find interesting. Mainly, if I recall, because 1) it was so patently absurd and 2) we knew the BBQ was going nowhere so were kinda filled with dread about where things were about to go instead. Even the spoiled people (again, if I recall correctly). Just wondering about all that in light of everything that's come afterwards. Large parts of this s/l will never really make much sense if we don't wank that they have been secretly making-out in private but if they had... large parts of this s/l don't make sense. And we know they haven't been making out privately. --Olivia changing her mind. This is a real shame: that it happens off-screen. Arguably, we don't see the moment. Unlike w/Helen, there is every kind of precedent within GL to show Olivia's private, non-Nat moments. Yeah, Olivia kinda gets it while P's talking--that's what that scene is for--but I'd suggest we don't see it because it's yet another leap the show's asking us to make around plot-contrivances that is not possible to show because the work hasn't been done, in terms of scripting. You can't show it because it doesn't *work*. They went and wrote in this pregnancy thing, then did not address anything it brought up. Nat never addresses it directly with Olivia: she announces she 'just had to leave' on her return. We have no direct evidence she knows about the half of what O. went through, other than what O. told her; maybe that's enough, but... no grand gesture, and no addressing of Issues, and no transition = not working, to me. So it's a shame, that Olivia's decision not to waste more time happens off-screen, but it's no surprise--that that's invisible, too. In fact, I'd suggest it's totally in keeping with the show's treatment of this entire subject matter. The lesbian thing. Finally & in consequence: --the kiss that is the non-kiss that is likely the only kiss we'll get: it doesn't count. 1) it's a campy joke; 2) Nat recoils in fear at the end of it--it's not consensual; 3) without another to balance/make up for it... it's not real. It announces the subject matter even as it deflects it/disowns it. |
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| abzug | Sep 6 2009, 03:37 PM Post #966 |
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In love with a prisoner
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Good post e. The only thing I disagree with is whether we saw Liv change her mind about being with Nat. For two weeks we've seen her in scenes with many characters, clearly thinking about these issues. Her tiny smiles at Nat's romantic gestures. Her attempts to reconcile what friendship with Nat would mean. I felt like, despite her explicit rejections of Nat (as late as Thursday's ep), she had been getting closer and closer to forgiving Nat, and the scene with Phillip was just the straw that broke the stubborn camel's back. I don't know what else they would/could have shown that was more transformative. The switch for Liv was both emotional and circumstantial--had the sonogram not been that afternoon, Liv wouldn't have revealed herself so quickly as having forgiven Nat. It might have taken a few more hours, or even the next day. |
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| abzug | Sep 6 2009, 03:38 PM Post #967 |
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In love with a prisoner
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Sorry, double post due to blackberry. |
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| cagey | Sep 6 2009, 03:57 PM Post #968 |
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
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That's a nice reading. Soaps are all about how the other characters react. The approval of just about every character when it comes to Otalia Love signifies that it is a good thing and they are accepted in the community. As opposed to say, among things I've never watched and am happy not to have - Daisy and Grady. I do think Nat's efforts were changing her mind, but Olivia also needs the public acknowledgment that it is okay to be with Natalia. That the two of them would be part of the community. However much it might make us squirm in our seats, Olivia wants to be enfolded into the community, she does not want to be the perpetual one left outside. That was really smacking up at Bill and Lizzie's wedding, the BBQ and Jeffer's memorial. Wow ekny 20 pages of politics cut? Good heavens was that considered off topic? Myself is completely resigned to the story not making much sense because it was not permitted to spool out according to the original outline. I think they are trying to get the couple to the place they *would have been* a year from now but there is only so much of that they can do on screen. Olivia changing her mind - not an easy thing to show on camera, I think. Perhaps she could be caressing a photo... .
She had to leave because she was mortified and she could not bring herself to tell Olivia. She was afraid of what it might mean to their relationship. I think she said all that first off, and by "what it might mean" I believe she means that it would ruin their relationship. True we have no prima facie evidence that Natalia knows about the potato chips or the road trip with Doris, but I don't have a problem with assuming Natalia is so attuned to Olivia that she *would* know. Of course, a furniture chewing dramatic scene with Olivia would have been fun, but, I can live without it. Interesting thing about Nat is her perpetual optimism now. You might call in childlike, or simple in its faith, but she is the other person in Springfield, other than Emma, who thinks Philip is "sick" rather than "dying." You can recover from sick. One could even argue that a Grand Gesture, while dramatic as well, is exactly Not what Olivia needs. She needs evidence that Natalia would never again make a gesture as dramatic as running away; she needs steady and always there, coming back every freaking day Natalia. While they are on the downhill trail now, the one that leads back to the FoL, they aren't there yet - Olivia may need more persuading.
That kiss - the My 2 Mommies kiss - I agree with all your comments and note that it was initiated by Olivia. Just for the sake of argument: The other non-kiss, the Hospital non-kiss is sincere, touching, initiated by Natalia and rejected by Olivia. They have some communication issues around kissing - look at all those would be kissing moments that end up in headlocks for Olivia. ("Headlocks for Olivia", wasn't that an afterschool special?) Not to credit the writing with that much symbolism and also not to wriggle out of the fact that the straight couples kiss all the time, I am trying to find a more satisfying reason for why kisses are dealt with the way the are. More satisfying than the dismissive cry of double standard censoring. PS: abzug: yeah, that too. |
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| ekny | Sep 6 2009, 06:57 PM Post #969 |
In love with a prisoner
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I take your point, Abzug. I agree. And/but... I realize now: the place I was trying to get to was: the fact that we *see* the transition doesn't, well... help, or help the last 8 weeks make sense, or really work, you know? Not the way intended, I think. We just have to swallow the medicine.
Ugh, the whole thing is a sh*tpile. Simmering resentment, outrage, much bad feeling, you prolly don't want to go there. No justifiable reason, ultimately, that I can see: it's clear a few people probably did post stuff that was against board rules (and yes such things do go on in other threads, there, unnoticed), but once the mods stepped in they started going way overboard--as is their wont--so now it's just a purge. Twenty pages... there's just no excuse for that. Putsch via autocrat continues: someone's still bouncing posts within minutes of their going up, in some cases. Which of course is not happening to non-Otalia material/posters etc etc. In short: the usual. Apparently that whole sub-thread got so animated it was just too much for the tiny mod-brains involved. (Which thread as a whole, as many have pointed out, was totally dead last November, and only took on new life after the non-kiss & old and new viewers returning to discuss the show. Which included and continues to include discussions abt other characters and storylines.) But by all accounts--what could be more 'about' the show than such a discussion? It does seem some individuals are being Punished/targeted, whatever else is going on.
And again--I agree, now. This is me, changing my mind! <waves hand> But the point I was trying to make is still there, which is that the pg storyline as a *way* to get to the next-year, two-year-supercouple-trajectory-happy-place didn't work given all the other constraints in play--limited time-frame & show-ending chief among them. (I assume their supercouple status or pending-status is in dispute by no one, and these writers, whatever else they do/do not do, work very much to formula). And the question of whether the writers ever really meant to do a pg s/l at this point in their story... I'm not so sure, anymore. I can work with it, but it seems pretty clear this was *not* the best vehicle in which to transport our girls to their final destination.
Uh, they have some communication issues around communication. The hospital non-kiss was initiated by Nat while Olivia was not ostensibly or, to the best of Nat's knowledge, fully conscious. Which is about as far from consensual as you can get. Taking advantage of the sedated girl and using drunkenness as an Excuse are both equally lacking that certain ah, optimum quality ya want for your, you know... adult, mutual kissage. If for no other reason, a 'real' kiss is required to redress that imbalance.
Oh hon. I worry for you. Really and truly. We need to rationalize this--on their behalf? The cry of censorship is pretty damn real, from what I can see. Not to mention what CC & others have said (or not-said, frex the Paley center event...). <sigh> I don't think you have to make a special case: they have no guidebook, they're trapped in a dopey soap opera not of their making; they're scared because having each convinced themselves/discovered they have indeed found the love of their lives--what if sex is a disappointment? etcetc. We could make up all kinds of stuff--for them. For us... not so much. But hey, knock yourself out. We'll be here with the splashing of the cold water and fringe-holding. Abzug, the comparison with BG... again, so tricky because what kind of 'community'--for the screws--is there, in prison? (Even there, H's status isolates her.) For the inmates--sort of: there are all kinds of complicated arrangements and hierarchies, as the show illustrated in great detail. That, too, is hardly freely-chosen. Helen's social isolation, I tend to think, was also in part a way of highlighting how out of touch she was with part of herself: she's given over almost all aspects of her personal life to Sean. Sean schedules the cheap-and-cheerfuls with *his* friends (Helen has none she sees regularly, far as we can tell), etc. You can't choose your community if you don't know who you are or where you find a sense of belonging. But even with the hugely different setting, I still totally agree that their isolation as a couple made everything enormously more difficult for them during S3. They have individual confidants, but none in parallel, is the other thing, once Dom is gone. Phillip, all those people in SF--can see *both* characters from the outside, presumably, objectively (or moreso). (In a free environment where their behavior is not constrained in all these weird specialized ways. Well, not counting soap ways, that is.) So when you say
I have to agree--in the same grudging tone you used. Because they have delivered their message, but who it was for--and who, among their audience, is still *listening* or even cares, given the tepid, unrealistic drift of the last few weeks--is the other part of the story. If soaps are, as Cagey continually points out, constructed with audience participation in mind... then if the show weren't ending, the question of how much of that audience would leave (beyond the ones who've already bailed) because so disenchanted, would come into play in a much bigger way than it already has.
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| ekny | Sep 6 2009, 10:32 PM Post #970 |
In love with a prisoner
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http://www.nytimes.com/2009/09/06/arts/tel...l?_r=1&ref=arts Article on end of GL includes: zero coverage of Otalia and an insert shot of a scene supposedly airing on the last day of... the black woman lawyer & the white aussie guy... in bed together. Back to the closets, people. Nothing to see here, move along. |
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| abzug | Sep 7 2009, 02:31 PM Post #971 |
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In love with a prisoner
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They're not on tomorrow. I'm kind of bummed. It's weird, I'm not sure what I expect we'll get with more screentime, since obviously it's not going to be what I hope (ie writing and acting along the lines of what we had from Sept through April). I had thought I would feel relief when this is all over, but I also do feel some panic or unease or something as the end nears. It's very strange, really. |
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| ekny | Sep 7 2009, 03:43 PM Post #972 |
In love with a prisoner
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I don't think you're at all alone. I think we need... something--lord knows what--that will make it right. Since it's not going to be a kiss, most likely (and if it is: how could it?), then it's like: really, is there anything? Some kind of letting-go part of the experience that will allow us to walk away feeling like--I don't know. It's ok, we can stop worrying. Speaking for myself, I guess. Or walk away feeling a little more even about what we got. eta: posted on top of Cagey, haven't read yet.... |
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| cagey | Sep 7 2009, 03:45 PM Post #973 |
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G3 Curtain and Duvet!
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Yeah, I agree it was a rocky road to take - primarily cause of the silliness around JL's own pregnancy. It ruined whatever "credibility" the story might have had. That a child would someday be involved is pretty standard soap, as is the paternity of the child being a complication. Supercouple status is an interesting question. I don't know enough about how couples end up there - how many times into the marriage and divorce did it take for Reva and Josh to get there? Just how many infidelities are required to prove the two are meant to be together?
I am not suggesting we rationalize anything on their behalf. I am only trying to be as rigorous in my examination of a soap opera as is possible. As has been noted elsewhere, other soaps have lesbians and gay men kissing, or implied kissing. There's no evidence that I know of that GL is particularly peculiar about the topic. De facto censorship, due to time constraints that truncated the story, is entirely possible and it would be hard to prove that this story was dealt with in a pointedly different fashion from the other stories. If you want to argue de jure censorship, when was it that this happened? Did it happen over say, one little "welcome home" kiss or was it over the alleged "love scene." Who did it? I honestly think that actual interference by a force beyond the production team (CBS, Telenext) would have been leaked by now. Call me a cock-eyed optimist, but the sort of de facto censorship with which we are constantly assaulted doesn't work me up into much of a lather around a story that all ready, as we've all noted at length, has many other offending and nauseating presumptions. So if you take at face value what the writers/producers have been saying: that Otalia is still not quite there and isn't yet on the same page about what their relationship is; then the kissing becomes the threshold. One which I have confidence they will not cross on screen. The frustration we all feel is that the story in our minds is running several months ahead of the story on screen. And much more explicitly.
I had this whole nail polish as symbolic of Liv's change of heart theory worked out and damn if the nail polish indicates that perhaps her heart has not finished the flip/flop. Which is to say, I am not sure Olivia has forgiven Natalia yet. Irritating as it is, the minute Olivia gives in completely, their story will be over, so I'm not looking for complete resolution until the very last day of the show. |
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| ekny | Sep 7 2009, 03:54 PM Post #974 |
In love with a prisoner
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I agree. Which however also suggests if it's the production team, there'd be nothing for them to 'leak' because they wouldn't view it as censorship. Just part of how they're telling the story.
I love this. Really. Here solitasolano went on about how it's Only Nailpolish, but damn if you haven't got me halfway convinced it's Meaningful Nailpolish. |
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| solitasolano | Sep 8 2009, 02:20 AM Post #975 |
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The last 3 pages are filled with great comments all. You all bought up many interesting themes and good points. I can’t possibly respond to all of them. Here’s a few topics though: Community
It’s Olivia’s story and Springfield’s story not Natalia’s. We’ve said that many times so it makes sense many members of SF would interject themselves into the outcome. At Jeffer’s memorial when O says to P she wishes there was someone there for her, that she feels like she’s dealing with every thing on her own, Philip corrects her and says it’s not true, that Olivia is connected to just about everyone in town. cagey, Olivia does want to be enfolded into the community. Not being a long time watcher I usually forget that. Fr**k accepted a while ago he was third wheel to the duo albeit a father. I don’t see that either Lillian nor Buzz know the extent or nature of Olivia’s and Natalia’s relationship. Buzz supports them separately, but he doesn’t know they’re in love. Lillian doesn’t either. Oh yeah fine, she knows they are BBF and maybe beyond, but since the show won’t call them lesbians or name their relationship neither can Lillian. Philip knows and supports them, always has from the first time I saw him in the show in jail. Ironically he tells Olivia then that he knows her, that she doesn’t care what people think so in a way, his response back in Feburary is opposite of the dynamic now. Though community recognition and support a good thing for the relationship, though actually, abzug, I would find it more interesting to have been able to watch this s/l ending with actual written scenes and dialog between Olivia and Natalia and been able to see Olivia respond by changing her mind. I think some of this is GL trying to have their cake and eat it too. Oh well. Always men involved
You girls are too funny. Love the indignation shown by the gang here. Having crossed into my second Saturn return, I have to tell you that I am ‘men are always involved’ blind and bored beyond mention, actually numbed is a better descriptor, for the men are it thing. It hardly registers with me. abzug, you’re suggestions are so much better of how this should play out. Well then again, if TPTB went that way, hey, they’d have to admit to gay love and label it, wouldn’t they? Olivia coming around to Natalia
I found there to be a lack of transition from tears w/ Philip to Olivia’s giant smilie face at the sonogram. Olivia has spent that last two weeks saying "I can't" or "it's not going to happen." Her conflict wasn't resolved to my satisfation. To me her coming around to Natalia was yet one more rehash of how the women’s relationship is about family not the two of them. “Bing” family in all it’s permutations I guess is a soap thing from what I’ve seen and read here. When I first started chugging the Otalia koolaid it seemed like the show was making their “entwining” mostly about family and now months latter nothing much has changed has it? Olivia’s just going to ‘go for it’. Good luck sweetie. LOL, unfortunately no one asked you. Would you please start writing for soaps or evening boardcast tv? The story is over
The story is over (nothwithstanding cagey’s point which I can’t get into because, you know, spoilage). The story is over, I agree. It’s been told. I can all but see the “to be continued” vignette zooming into the forehead nuzzling shot. Happily ever after. Oh I’m familiar with some spoilers which still claim some drag on the relationship, but basically it’s done. There’s nowhere to go with these two except under the covers and we know we’re never going there. The story will continue in endless fanfics which I’ll never end up reading because I don’t go there, but many others will. So what’s next? Yeah save me a chair, I’m there too. But what did we get, I get out of all this Otalia stuff for better or worse? Got CC. That was a fun thing. A little more than two months ago I had not a clue that Crystal Chappell’s Olivia Freakin Spencer existed. Can’t complain. What else? Can’t believe I rather like the music of Kyler England. Did I say that out loud? I hate simp-rock. And it just so happens that the top of the alphabetical list of sponsoring hotels for the Washington DC Equality March is the Beacon Hotel…pretty much was a no brainer and saved me a lot of time trying to decide where to stay. |
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[I woke UP thinking about this this morning, I am just. so. peeved.]
Which is to say, I am not sure Olivia has forgiven Natalia yet. Irritating as it is, the minute Olivia gives in completely, their story will be over, so I'm not looking for complete resolution until the very last day of the show.

8:45 AM Jul 11