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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,223 Views)
ekny
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In love with a prisoner
Good lord. Really? :ph43r: <insert twilight zone theme toone here>
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solitasolano
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I like horses so I don't want to beat dead ones, but it occurred to me that in Thursday's episode Olivia and Natalia got to stand next to each other, you know, like along side each other, as in touching, twice instead of the usual four feet or more apart where they couldn't reach each other to touch even if they wanted to. Hey, that was a change at least.


Awfully quiet round these parts. Purple parasocial withdrawal setting in I suppose. :o
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cagey
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My odd thought while driving the freeway (101 North, if that is inspirational).

A story about lesbians, that would be compelling, is not about lesbians. It is about how we see them.

We have stories written about straight people trying to understand what the deal is with us.

We have had stories of lesbians basically talking to ourselves (that UK webseries for instance, and a great amount of lesbian film).

But the real story, the one that isn't worried about coming out, is about how we connect (or not) with the rest of the mainstream.

Cause can we agree that our lives, on the micro daily level, or just as mundane as theirs.

OK I sense another thread, or rant, or both coming on. Perhaps it is time to adjourn elsewhere.

Is there any indication that GL is going beyond Friday?
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abzug
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cagey
 
But the real story, the one that isn't worried about coming out, is about how we connect (or not) with the rest of the mainstream.

I'm not totally sure if this is what you mean, but I will say that this is the thing which makes me perversely hopeful about Venice, because it's got lesbians, and those lesbians have families, friends etc who aren't lesbians, who, you know, connect and relate to the world at large, live within it and of it, but not completely of it. If they do manage to capture this, and portray it in a compelling way, in an ongoing way, then it'll be the lesbian storyline I've always wanted to see. And isn't this, to some extent, what Bad Girls accomplished with the character of Nikki?

cagey
 
Is there any indication that GL is going beyond Friday?

None whatsoever that I've seen.
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abzug
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Well, geez, the whole Reva-finds-out moment was awfully anti-climactic. Her last line, which implied that if a woman couldn't have Josh, then being with a woman instead is the next best thing, could have been better written, both to punch up what she was saying about Josh (he's the ideal man) and to punch up what she was saying about women (that they are better than men).

In terms of the outing to other characters (Beth, Alan, Alexandra), of course it was predictable that no one, even the homophobe Alan, had a bad word to say. Strange that the women (Beth and Reva) both noticed something, but weren't truly willing to put two and two together, and needed the men to explain/confirm what was going on. This seems the opposite of real life, in my mind, since I think women tend to be attuned to these things more than men are. I would have liked to see the women embrace Olviia and Natalia (emotionally-speaking, not literally give them a hug), and because both Beth and Reva needed confirmation/explanation, we didn't get to see this.

Maybe there also could have been some nerves on Liv and Nat's part? I mean, holy crap, the first time you are out at a public event as a same-sex couple is scary, even if people know about you already, being SEEN that way is tough. But they had zero anxiety. I guess I am asking too much?

I think we can assume at this point that they've had sex? This is the most physical affection we've seen between the two of them since that hug post-spa.

I liked that Rafe is still uncomfortable--that seems realistic to me. It's not really nuanced, of course, but this is a soap, so I'm cutting some slack.

I do think it's interesting that this double-wedding became lesbo central, with two same-sex couples making their debut. I kind of like that: rather than lesbians being alone and lonely, they're part of the hetero love-fest, embraced by each other and the community at-large. In particular it seems important to me that Doris has been dating someone this entire time, meaning the Lesbian isn't, and hasn't been, alone, even if her relationship hasn't been part of the explicit narrative.

And I don't mean to be shallow or anything, but Olivia looked absolutely SMOKIN' in that red dress.
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abzug
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One other thought--it's actually kind of cool that no one, not Doris, not Liv and Nat, actually had to "come out" per se. I mean, they are just living their gay ole lives, and people are noticing. It's like that academic article which compared Ellen's coming out on "Ellen" with Helen's coming out on "Bad Girls" and suggested the depiction of Helen was more evolved/interesting, because it moved beyond static notions of identity "I am gay" to dynamic notions of wanting/livng "I want a woman."

It seems to me that these two couples showing up at this wedding are even further along in terms of our culture's depiction of and reaction to gay people, because they are simply doing, without there needing to be words for it, and people (for the most part, the men at least) are getting it. I mean, Doris never even said "This is my girlfriend"--she just introduced this Amanda woman, and Ashlee got it.

It's kinda cool, really. Although I am sure someone can argue it the other way, and say this is a form of invisibility or conformity etc etc.
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solitasolano
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Haven't seen the show, the RL thing, but have read cbs running desciption.

abzug, ITA will all of both your posts. Right on as usual. I especially look forward to being just as shallow as you with the Olivia Freaking Spencer red dress thing....(seems like Olivia hasn't taken N shoppin yet. lol).

ETA: micro second scenes all, but at this point I'm not complainin'.
Re the it being the men who clue everyone in, I think this is yet again this show wanting to have their cake and eat it too. I think of both Philip and Josh as Olivia's friends, she doesn't have female friends, so of course they know the score, but....
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abzug
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One other thought (sorry, they're coming in dribs and drabs today): is this the first episode in which Father Ray has appeared since Natalia returned to Springfield? Even if it isn't, I think it's still noteworthy that this is the first episode in which Natalia and Father Ray have been in a scene together since she returned. Because he always represented the critical, anti-gay voice of the church, and so I think it's significant that his voice has basically been silenced/erased by the text since Natalia resolved her issues. When she still had some internal doubts, he (aka the Church's view on homosexuality) had a voice. Once she didn't, the Church's opinion on the matter became completely insignificant, because she was no longer open to hearing it. Simplistic and rushed, maybe, but I don't hate the meaning of it.
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ekny
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I'm still caching today's paltry 7 minutes via dial-up, so it'll be several hours bef I've seen it. Will read Abzug's posts & any since then at that point....

Meanwhile, I find myself still irked about CC's ad-libbed kiss with that dude on Friday. I get they've worked together before & she's saying goodbye to a colleague blahblah: so? It was an unfortunate decision. I don't expect her to have any particular, specialized sensitivity to this part of her audience's needs, but given the rather glaring lack of kissage with Natalia--considering how pathetically grateful people would have been for even such a totally meaningless, casual *peck* with Natalia at ANY time in the last 6 months, I have to say I found myself equally irritated & rather depressed by the whole business. (And of course, it was invisible to CBS censors: why on earth would they have edited it out or reshot the scene?)

Coupled with her absolute, flat-out response in the negative when she was tweeted, twice, about whether she brushed or pinched Nat's ass when hanging up her purse on her chair at the Cooper's restaurant

http://i26.tinypic.com/5fjdvl.jpg

(the first reply was a kind of vague, coy, nahhh; the second was, quite clearly N-O [not that this wasn't already evident from context and not that it should be necessary to further demonstrate to the woman how desperate people are to see something, anything]), this just underlined (to me) that this is not someone who's operating with any special kind of awareness on 'our' behalf. She's got a good audience segment here, she's gonna run with it.

CC's ability to play equally with all parts of her audience merely confirms she's a pro, but it also confirms she has no particular stake in this beyond the commercial. Which I knew but stuff like this--call me oversensitive--just rubs it in, far as I'm concerned.
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abzug
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ekny
 
I find myself still irked about CC's ad-libbed kiss with that dude on Friday.

Do we know it was an adlib? And if so, I am going to assume she also adlibbed the kiss with Doris a couple weeks ago. So I don't have a problem with her doing the same with a male character. I think given the existing of both kisses, CC is probably trying in her way to make a point: if Olivia just naturally kisses ALL of these other people, how ridiculously unrealistic is it that she isn't kissing Natalia? She's emphasizing the absence of casual Liv-Nat affection in the only way she can, by drawing attention to the presence of casual affection elsewhere.
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ekny
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That's an excellent point. I would like to agree--I really want to--and think it's generous and right of you to give her credit for good intentions.

As it is, there's insufficient data that she's making that kind of concerted effort. The kiss with Doris was, of course, a cheek-kiss. We have no indication it (unlike the mouth-kiss with that dude) *was* ad-libbed (and yes, CC stated that was the case). And Olivia was in a very different place, emotionally, when it took place, 2-3 weeks ago. Contextually that suggests its potential significance is different, as well.

Meanwhile, we're still reduced to analyzing their relationship in terms of proxemics (4 feet apart? 2 feet? leaning on each at Phillip's [and I assume the wedding, but I haven't seen past the first minute of today's ep yet]: what does that mean about their first night together at the Fol? etc).
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abzug
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ekny
 
We have no indication it (unlike the mouth-kiss with that dude) *was* ad-libbed (and yes, she CC stated that was the case).

Can you point out where she stated that? I just looked through her tweets from last night and didn't see this confirmed.
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abzug
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Found it:
@crystalchappell Did u adlib the Jonathan kiss? Inquiring minds.
3:57 PM Sep 10th from web in reply to crystalchappell

@kmsgirl Yeah. It was my last scene with tommy
4:01 PM Sep 10th from TweetDeck in reply to kmsgirl

Can I just say, I fucking hate Twitter? Finding that took WAY too long.

Here's my feeling on the issue. She knows the not-kissing with Natalia is an issue. She felt it herself, as the character. She's been asked about it by everyone. It's not what she wanted. She talked to the writers about it.

Does she appreciate the subtleties of the lesbian chip on the shoulder? Nope, but that's not news. And to truly understand the potential carelessness of this particular adlib, we'd need to know everything she's adlibbed in terms of dialogue and staging over this entire storyline. Only at that point could we determine whether her adlibs added to the robustness of the story (in terms of passion and affection, which is the issue at hand), or detracted from it.
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ekny
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Sept 10, @crystalchappell Did u adlib the Jonathan kiss? Inquiring minds.3:57 PM Sep 10th from web in reply to crystalchappell

# @kmsgirl Yeah. It was my last scene with tommy4:01 PM Sep 10th from TweetDeck in reply to kmsgirl

earlier:

@crystalchappell Dear, Dear Crystal.. Can you PLease let us know what it is you do here??PLEASE?? http://i26.tinypic.com/5fjd...3:33 PM Sep 10th from TweetDeck in reply to crystalchappell

# @Sthur Hmmmm? I'm not tellin! hehehe3:34 PM Sep 10th from TweetDeck in reply to Sthur


@crystalchappell YES OR NO? Did you pinch Natalias ASS?! U KNOW u wanna reply tot his tweet ;) 3:55 PM Sep 10th from web

# @unlessstated No. There may have been a totally innocent brush. I was hanging up my bag on the chair3:57 PM Sep 10th from TweetDeck in reply to unlessstated

eta: woops, we're posting at the same time again...! :)

I agree as far as that goes: we'll never know all that stuff, & never do, for any media--who controls what, the degree of constraint actors are under for any given scene, etc. In this case, we do at least know the kiss was ad-libbed. I'm just saying the ad-lib was unfortunate, in my view, and the juxtaposition of the disavowal of any kind of intention behind touching Nat in the other scene was also unfortunate, although in the second case, arguably just in terms of the timing/appearance of the two questions, so near each other. But we are still talking abt the same episode, at least.
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abzug
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Well, I don't criticize her responses to the butt-brush question. She tried to flirt in response, which I think is a good, pro-gay way of responding. Then when she gathered that the crazy rabid lezzie fans actually wanted to know what had happened, she gave it to 'em straight. I don't see that as disowning anything, or dismissing the importance of physical contact between these two characters. What would you have wanted her to respond?

ETA:
ekny
 
But we are still talking abt the same episode, at least.

Nope, the butt brush was Thursday (name-the-baby day), and the kiss was Friday (move-in day). But again, I don't have a problem with her disavowing any intention in that moment. It would have been crude for Olivia to pinch Nat's butt in front of Frank, when arriving to discuss baby names. She (Olivia) was already asserting her place in regards to Frank, and if people didn't get that sufficiently from the scene, then it's not CC's fault. She played the scene right, didn't overdo it, etc.
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