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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,222 Views)
ekny
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In love with a prisoner
I don't criticize it either. It's just sad, the whole business, having to put a bunch of pathetic table-scraps under a microscope. Welcome to the Lido deck. :/
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cagey
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"totally innocent brush" sounds pretty evasive to me. :)
But I think "pinch" was probably the wrong specific to ask.

Worse than that, though, is the thought of analyzing someone's tweets for indications of her motivations in playing a character. Much less delineating which of her lines were ab libs and which not. I tend to think she was not so invested in the story that she was trying to make a point about the lack of kissing. I don't think the lack of kissing was keeping her up nights and other than having one of those straight girls discussions with JL about the logistics, I am not convinced the lack of kissing occurred to her until it was brought to her attention by the fans.

Once the cancellation was announced I think the entire cast starting looking elsewhere and distancing themselves as much as possible from the obvious pain of the show ending.

But that would be because I am naturally generous and optimistic. Also in a really good mood as I am taking a day off and not needing to be furtive about checking in here.
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abzug
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cagey
 
I don't think the lack of kissing was keeping her up nights and other than having one of those straight girls discussions with JL about the logistics, I am not convinced the lack of kissing occurred to her until it was brought to her attention by the fans.

I don't know what keeps her up nights, but it was brought to her attention by fans as early as when she did the Big Purple Dreams podcast, which was right after they filmed Rafe finding out. So she had two more weeks with Natalia, then Natalia's absence, then six more weeks (or five?) with Nat after her return to know that the kissing was an issue for the fans.

My read on it is that the lack of kissing had to have occurred to her even earlier than that, when they were filming the "if sex never happens" scenes, because they are staged in such a physically awkward manner that I've always read them as a struggle for the actresses to play the physical intimacy within the boundaries set for them. If she hadn't had any sort of problem with the no-kissing, then these scenes wouldn't have looked so damn awkward. There are other non-kiss scenes which seemed sexy and not awkward (jacket tug during the hike, park bench slide, maybe we should just tell them moment right after Rafe gets out of the halfway house), so I know CC and JL can do it when it feels real and motivated to them to not be kissing.

ekny
 
It's just sad, the whole business, having to put a bunch of pathetic table-scraps under a microscope.

I think we all completely and totally agree on this. It's like we're 1950s closeted lesbians reading pulp novels and not minding that the lesbians all go insane and commit suicide by the end.
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ekny
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Cagey, I agree with your post entirely, except for this:

cagey
 
Worse than that, though, is the thought of analyzing someone's tweets for indications of her motivations in playing a character. Much less delineating which of her lines were ab libs and which not.

What's 'worse' about that? She's being asked about her acting choices and her understanding of her character's motivation. It's a public forum: we'd pay the same attention to something like that if she said it in an interview, and she has a lot more control over the content on Twitter. She can respond (or not) to whatever she want to, however she chooses.

eta:
Abzug
 
I think we all completely and totally agree on this. It's like we're 1950s closeted lesbians reading pulp novels and not minding that the lesbians all go insane and commit suicide by the end.

Fuckin-A RIGHT!

God if this keeps up we'll have to get a party-line on Skype or something, jeez louise!
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solitasolano
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abzug
Sep 14 2009, 10:56 AM
Can you point out where she stated that?

I read the same thing. It was earlier though I can't be much help at the moment finding the reference. CC said she did it because it was their last scene together.

abzug
 
is this the first episode in which Father Ray has appeared since Natalia returned to Springfield?
Yes, totally. I've thought about this several times, but admit I've disliked the god thing so much in the s/l I repressed any thought of it after the god content went away. It was all tedious to me that god angst.
I remember being surprised and then not so, that Father Ray was the first person Natalia seeked out after her return. He asks did she find out what god wants for her to do? She reply, no better, what I want to do which is what god wants, blah blah yada, I'm going to be happy. Then the god thing never comes up again. So the god thing gets resolved by it's omission for the s/l. Or as you point out, abzug, since Natalia resolved her issues with god and religion, they were silenced in the text. Thank goddess.

Btw, I haven't seen the show, but did Father F interact with them at all?


ETA: Skype or IMing it should be bec of this post being interrupted by work (jealous I am of you today cagey), I started this post while you all were on the last page as a response to abzug's 10:56 am post (well left coast time).

Shoot, I would have thought CC was aware of no kissage even earlier as the spa scene has Olivia deliver "there's more" line to the Natalia friendship statement, and then in a soon thereafter episode O/N are sitting outside on a bench after Fr**k is in the hospital beat up and figures it out, where Olivia states they have to figure what the "this" of their relationship is so either one (ie. big O) can move on if it's not what they want.

By the time I started watching in late June I figured the kiss moment had been passed up to the point of no return...TPTB just were never going to go there, and, hey, didn't.
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abzug
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solitasolano
 
Btw, I haven't seen the show, but did Father F interact with them at all?

You mean Father R, right? Like, this isn't some jokey reference to Frank which I'm not getting? Although in either case the answer is NO, they did not interact with Father R, or Frank. The only way they were in the same scene as Father R was their presence at the wedding ceremony, in the audience. Further indication of how thoroughly he has been excised from their story.

ETA: Although we do know that Nat has stayed connected with the church, based on her scene with Mel, talking about baking cookies at church. So Nat's religious spirituality is intact, without the damage of the church's restrictions. Idealized and unrealistic, maybe, but it's the ending to that aspect of the story which I would have wanted.
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cagey
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ekny
 
What's 'worse' about that? She's being asked about her acting choices and her understanding of her character's motivation. It's a public forum: we'd pay the same attention to something like that if she said it in an interview, and she has a lot more control over the content on Twitter. She can respond (or not) to whatever she want to, however she chooses.


Worse only in that twitter does not allow the depth of question or response that an interview does. So the question has no context (given the lack of physical intimacy between these two, did you make a conscious decision to pat/brush/pinch JL's backside as you walked in?) and we are left to try to decide if the question and answer has deeper meaning.

About god and Father Ray: the religion angle on this story has been messed up from day one. Or day whatever it was when Nat got all high and mighty over Daisy's abortion. She has been highly selective in her interpretation of dogma - which is the one true thing Rafe said to her. I find myself astounded that overall I think Father Ray was not a bad guy. Irritating dick head, yes, but he wasn't nearly as nasty as he might have been about the direction Nat was obviously heading from her first acknowledgment of her love for Olivia. Like most of the men in town, he lays the blame at Olivia's feet.

But I agree, solitasolano, given her unorthodox approach to same sex love, any angst around religion seemed pro forma.
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abzug
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cagey
 
About god and Father Ray: the religion angle on this story has been messed up from day one. Or day whatever it was when Nat got all high and mighty over Daisy's abortion. She has been highly selective in her interpretation of dogma - which is the one true thing Rafe said to her.

I didn't watch the show back then, and have never gone back that far to get the context, but I don't see why the religion angle has been messed up. Nat it seems tried as hard as she could to stick to the rules and teachings of the church:
1. Didn't approve of Daisy's abortion (esp. given she had made a different decision when she was Daisy's age)
2. Didn't have sex with Gus before they were married (the second time around, I mean)
3. Deeply regretted having sex with Frank because they weren't married and weren't in love.
4. Struggled mightily to understand her feelings for Olivia, because they didn't seem right, or allowed or even possible.

It was only the overpowering strength of her love for Olivia which inspired her to examine her religious beliefs and take a critical look at the church's teachings to see if they were right. It seems to me that pre-Olivia she never questioned whether the church was right, even if she sometimes failed to live up to its teachings.

Or is there something else messed up which I am missing? (That's highly possible given that I didn't really watch the scenes prior to Olivia getting Gus's heart.)

cagey
 
I find myself astounded that overall I think Father Ray was not a bad guy. Irritating dick head, yes, but he wasn't nearly as nasty as he might have been about the direction Nat was obviously heading from her first acknowledgment of her love for Olivia. Like most of the men in town, he lays the blame at Olivia's feet.

Oh, I'm not astounded--I feel the same way. He stood for the church's teachings, but he didn't pull the whole "You will burn in hell for all eternity" or "Never come back into the church" etc etc which he could have. He was a dick to Olivia, though. Speaking of laying the blame at Olivia's feet, I'm realizing that's one disappointing thing about today's coming out fest: we don't really get to see characters like Reva wondering how the relationship came to be, who seduced who, etc.

cagey
 
Worse only in that twitter does not allow the depth of question or response that an interview does. So the question has no context (given the lack of physical intimacy between these two, did you make a conscious decision to pat/brush/pinch JL's backside as you walked in?) and we are left to try to decide if the question and answer has deeper meaning.

I totally agree. And I've seen CC go on and on in interviews about how much she loves Twitter, but if I were as concerned about my image as she is (and I think she is, no matter how casual and open she seems to be), I'd be worried about the misunderstandings which are possible when you only have 144 characters.

Speaking of Twitter, did anyone see Orlagh Cassidy's tweets? She was really cute about not giving away who her girlfriend would be. @orlaghcassidy is her user name, I believe.
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cagey
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So I re-watched the ad-libbed smooch and I have got to say that while your discomfort, ekny is understandable, you have got to remember who the character is. Jonathan is essentially Olivia's nephew. Long lost nephew who left town a year ago (possibly without leaving a note or voicemail, not sure on that) and has suddenly returned. I put that smooch in the same category as the Doris peck.

As for religion, I am not in a position to argue the finer points of Roman Catholicism, but Springfield's version strikes me as very Protestant. Goodness knows Roman Catholicism is not the only species of Christianity that considers abortion and premarital sex to be sins. Religion in Springfield is highly generic and clearly the same church building is used for different denominations, which only emphasizes the notion of a generic Christian ethos. Not everyone goes to Father Ray's church. And either that church as 2 priests or there's another Roman Catholic church across town (Nat references going to a different mass). I don't know enough about the history of the show to know if the other families are identified as Roman Catholic. Olivia was raised in the church (by a fanatic mother, there's a red flag). There is a specific link made between the Latino members of the community (the Santos, the Riveras) and Roman Catholicism, which is another flag for me. Natalia's superstitious and almost primitively innocent approach to her faith is a third one.
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solitasolano
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abzug
 
Or is there something else messed up which I am missing?


Now before you call me a cynic again, it's not that the show messed up with the religious angle, it's that religion is messed up. That's what I took cagey to mean. Correct me if I'm wrong. So if I may quote you, how about the following, not necessarily in the right order or weighted significance of messed up by religion.

Nat it seems tried as hard as she could to stick to the rules and teachings of the church:
1. Didn't approve of Daisy's abortion (esp. given she had made a different decision when she was Daisy's age)
2. Didn't have sex with Gus before they were married (the second time around, I mean)
3. Deeply regretted having sex with Frank because they weren't married and weren't in love.
4. Struggled mightily to understand her feelings for Olivia, because they didn't seem right, or allowed or even possible.


When I first started watching, the whole Natalia religious thing made me crazy. God was her best friend. Was the character even able to develop friendships with the god clamp on her brain? Although this makes it believable that two people, O and N, who really didn't have friends fit together in the friendless void for the need of companionship from the very beginning after the heart transplant thing (did we mention realism somewhere?).

I was relieved when Natalia returned and apparently left the dogma at the nunnery.
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abzug
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Oh, I'm in total agreement regarding my own feelings about religion, and how it's portrayed on the show. BUT, in this day and age, it was necessary for one of these characters to be deeply religious, because otherwise what's the obstacle preventing them from falling in love and being together?

We live in a time when it's no longer realistic for internalized homophobia or hetero identity to keep two people apart, particularly two mature adults. The Shed folks acknowledged this when they decided to make Helen fall in love with a prisoner, because they didn't think it would be a big enough hurdle for Helen to get over if all she had to get over was that the object of her affection was a woman.

I'm not saying in real life it isn't hard to come out to yourself. It is. But it's just not hard enough, or high enough stakes, for television anymore, not like it was 15+ years ago. So in a show set outside of prison or war, religion seems to be the only realistic obstacle which could truly cause an ongoing struggle for one character to come to terms with her same-sex attraction.
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ekny
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due to the good fortune of a wedding, we will not see Olivia in pants again. Convenient.

Goth Nailpolish: does not matter. It does not (not not not) go with that dress.

Of course for those who enjoy praticing Resistant Reading, something lesbians excel at, we can argue Olivia of *course* knows this and therefore her nailpolish indicates the new, lesbian!Olivia.

I'm not going there, myself.

Rafe is, once again, a Good Boy. To his mother, sure. To the rest of us he's a serial murderer in the making, but whatevs.

Emma has the best two... oh never mind, I'm sure others have posted about this. I'm still throwing up in my mouth a little.

We are going to take Olivia and Natalia's coming out to Alan (which is a happy thing--how many times exactly did he chew that line?) and we're going to turn it into a *romantic moment* for the bedridden Alan and face-lift lady? Please don't go there.

ekny gets more points for calling Bartender Chick. Sorry guys, but this round's mine, too. ;p

Mom and daughter kisses, Alan gets a kiss, even. <sigh>

'We love the smell of a newborn baby, right?'

There's more throwing up here. 'scuze me, I gotto go.

Guess I'll read all the Nice things everyone else had to say after I clean up a bit.
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cagey
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Just watched the whole ep and I feel like a wedding crasher. I only knew vaguely who 1 of the 3 cameo olde timers were and I have no idea what their various antipathies are with Vanessa or Billy. It must mean something to someone, but I felt like I was back at square one understanding this soap.

ekny - I am sure you didn't mean to suggest, although, maybe you did, that Alan and his sister Alexandra have an incest thing going on? They will might could. But I do agree with you on the smell of a newborn baby - tho' that whole exchange seems to have gone way off target. Script anyone?

Re: Beth and Reva not knowing while their respective men did. There is something there, and I think it has to do with both men having been Olivia's lovers and both women being Olivia's rivals. The women always see Olivia as competition while the men just see her as available. I was thinking earlier that part of the male fascination with Otalia in Springfield has to be that NONE of them were man enough for Olivia. And now that she is with Natalia, she is totally off the market for any of them.

And in my experience, at least, it is men who pick up much more quickly than women when there is potential lesbian action going on. They notice when the women aren't interested in them; women are willing to go a long way down the road of "they are just really really good friends."

But please, even if you are seven months pregnant, do you wear flip flops to a wedding? Wait, I remember reading about some high school student who went to a White House reception in flip flops. Nevermind.

Bartender chick - just what are you calling ek? I believe we all saw the dollar bill hand caress of months ago and figured Doris was getting more action that Olivia. Only question is if she is on the clock or not.

I was struck again with how often they are referred to or refer to themselves as the 2 Mommies. This really was the storyline. To go from being afraid of what that meant to accepting and celebrating it. They are still baby raising machines, even if they might be queer. So once that is cleared up, it's time to party down.

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solitasolano
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=cageyI was struck again with how often they are referred to or refer to themselves as the 2 Mommies. This really was the storyline. To go from being afraid of what that meant to accepting and celebrating it. They are still baby raising machines, even if they might be queer. So once that is cleared up, it's time to party down.

Hey, I'll roll with that, especially evolving from the "is it the end of the world?" argument to "can't waste anymore time" acceptance. Yeah, as one late to the party the chapter headings always read family family family.

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abzug
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ekny
 
due to the good fortune of a wedding, we will not see Olivia in pants again. Convenient.

How wrong you are. She's in pants at least twice more, and at least one of those times (maybe both) those pants are jeans.

cagey
 
Re: Beth and Reva not knowing while their respective men did. There is something there, and I think it has to do with both men having been Olivia's lovers and both women being Olivia's rivals. The women always see Olivia as competition while the men just see her as available.

This is a good point. It's really just impossible for them to think of her sexually interested in another woman, because of the competition/rivalry factor. In certain ways, this soap has resisted being boiled down to simplistic messages (like what "men" understand and what "women" understand) because of the history of all the characters, and then outliers like Doris who confuse matters. For that, I do have to give them some credit.

cagey
 
I was thinking earlier that part of the male fascination with Otalia in Springfield has to be that NONE of them were man enough for Olivia. And now that she is with Natalia, she is totally off the market for any of them.

This has always been one of the things I have enjoyed most about this story, that little femmy Natalia is the only one strong enough to have tamed Olivia. Of course one could problematize the fact that Olivia was tamed at all, but given that she desperately wanted to be tamed for the last 10 years, and was in charge of her own transformation, I don't see it as a problem myself. But yeah, Olivia is too much woman for any of the men on the show, but not for Natalia. If that's not Lesbian with a capital L, by which I mean it feels gay to me, in an authentic way, then I don't know what is.
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