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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,219 Views)
abzug
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In love with a prisoner
Oh my god. I'm in love with Justin Deas. Halfway through the article, and completely madly in love with him.
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ekny
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Thank you, most sincerely. I actually feel better now, like I'm not hallucinating all these things that irritated the piss out of me. And agree entirely abt staging--esp for this show, where the crowd scene at the funeral home--Phillip's big appearance--was so remarkably static I could barely sit through the clips. So it's a long-standing issue at least for this show, but here... yeah. Yes to all of your post--no, not evil, just unfortunate, in this case, they barely had sets left to shoot on at this point, but yeah they could have done better with more time and forethought. And isn't Mister Deas just the most refreshing thing around? Talk about no bull.
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abzug
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Because I can't keep my mouth shut, I had to reply to the user comment here.
http://www.boston.com/ae/tv/articles/2009/...a/?comments=all

I'm just praying it doesn't turn into some flame war about labels. Although I think part of me secretly hopes it might, and all the heteros can read it.
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cagey
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abzug
Sep 17 2009, 01:48 AM
Because I can't keep my mouth shut, I had to reply to the user comment here.
http://www.boston.com/ae/tv/articles/2009/...a/?comments=all

I'm just praying it doesn't turn into some flame war about labels. Although I think part of me secretly hopes it might, and all the heteros can read it.

Considering both women have declared this to be the love of their lives, it certainly does take them off the market for any other partners and you are on the money that this means they are in a lesbian relationship.


On to today's mishaps.

First - I do remember well when actor of Rafe had his big moment in a soap paper talking about a "sensual lip caress" or some such. It sent the fans into a swoon and, because we were young and foolish, a certain sense of being conned when the scene finally played. Since then we've all learned to read the spoilers from a different angle. Was there, wasn't there - whatever - I don't think there was a plot to cut all lip caressing.

Second - I was not so bothered by the staging of the scenes in Company. That place was jam packed and from what we keep hearing about just how small it is, it was probably physically impossible for Nat to leave her position by the table and get to Olivia over at the bar. The little coffee annex and about 3 people were in the way.

The whole show had this rushed but please god let it end quality to it.

For some reason (perhaps it is because it is what any parent would do for a child, as Alan intoned over and over yesterday) there was much Tellling of the Children that Alan was gone. Beth had a scene with Peyton (last seen possibiy in a stroller, to tell her that her biological father had just died. The one they kept the news of Peyton's paternity from. The one who *thinks* her father is Rick. If this soap wasn't on crack trying to finish everything up, Alan's departure would have taken weeks. But since today's theme was Saying Goodbye everyone had to hurry up and react already.

The center of the show was Aunt Alex - she got more acting in there than she's had the whole time I've been watching this.

Third, I am so very glad that Josh has asked Natalia to look after his friend and Rafe has asked Olivia to look after his mother and Frank has not been asked to look after either. [where's the dripping sarcasm e-con?]

Fourth, it continues to amuse me that not pregnant Lizzie is now visibly way more pregnant than fake pregnant Natalia.

Finally, there is much testimony that Christian LeBlanc - of the video blog kissing is way gay. And it was Justin Deas providing commentary. Sometimes I am at the party but I am not at the party.
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abzug
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cagey
 
Third, I am so very glad that Josh has asked Natalia to look after his friend and Rafe has asked Olivia to look after his mother and Frank has not been asked to look after either. [where's the dripping sarcasm e-con?]

Wow, you are so right to be pointing this out. It so could have gone this way, but didn't. So they've managed to include Frank (in the baby raising stuff), but otherwise really exclude him. About six months later than I would have liked, but whatever.
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solitasolano
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Yep, I noticed that Fr**k has been out of the Olivia/Natalia loop pretty much since a smiley Olivia showed up at Company to name their baby. Of course, her line "our" baby with the three of them sitting there made me crazy. How big was the "our"? Guess the viewer gets to decide. Another case of the show having it's cake and eating it too. Stay home Fr**k.

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abzug
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I am disturbed. Spoilers for today included the following sentence: "Olivia and Doris discuss their happiness and friendship." However, it seems no such scene appeared in the episode. Or at least, if it did, oootaliaaa didn't notice it, which seems awfully unlikely. Could they have cut something SO significant to the conclusion of this storyline? Or is it only significant to lesbian viewers, and therefore them cutting it is further proof we don't count?
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solitasolano
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spiralsign at cbsforums confirms Olivia in one random scene today.


There's always tomorrow. I put my last few Otalia bucks on and Olivia/Doris exchange tomorrow. The scene will only take seconds like most of the scenes do as the show wraps up.. My last surprise, what is the story of the hat? Maybe that's what Doris has to comment to Olivia about. LOL.

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cagey
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abzug
Sep 16 2009, 06:35 PM
ekny
 
"I want her to hear it from me not someone else": the blocking for this scene was unfortunate:

I was extremely bothered by this too, every single thing you pointed out. It made me uncomfortable and agitated, because of the lack of connection between Liv and Nat when so many hugely emotional things were happening. BUT, the last moment of the scene Liv waited for Nat, and they held hands and walked out together. Which didn't make up for the screwed up staging of the rest of it, but at least that end moment felt right to me.


I had a thought about this again this morning. Since the last baby naming session, Olivia and Natalia have indeed morphed into Otalia. They are never apart. They were attached at the shoulder for the last two days at the wedding reception. That they were separated by other people and objects in this very crowded scene in Company should make us uncomfortable; should have us expecting Nat to leap over everyone to get to other half. Off putting as it may be, this couple is all about being soulmates with whom sex might "happen" but for whom physical attraction is not required for maintain their connection.


abzug
 
I am disturbed. Spoilers for today included the following sentence: "Olivia and Doris discuss their happiness and friendship." However, it seems no such scene appeared in the episode. Or at least, if it did, oootaliaaa didn't notice it, which seems awfully unlikely. Could they have cut something SO significant to the conclusion of this storyline? Or is it only significant to lesbian viewers, and therefore them cutting it is further proof we don't count?


I wouldn't put too much stock in a spoiler like that. Some of those have come down to a single side comment when played out. In any case, part of the soap script requires those who have achieved some state of momentary happiness to comment on just how perfect things are ... now ... just before something like Alan dying happens. Otalia has been taking victory laps all week - if this dialogue does appear today or tomorrow, it's going to be Doris saying, gee Olivia you look like you finally found the family you were meant to be part of and Olivia saying yes Doris and I am happy for you and Ashlee - the love of a mother for her child is the strongest bond there is.
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ekny
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cagey
 
Off putting as it may be, this couple is all about being soulmates with whom sex might "happen" but for whom physical attraction is not required for maintain their connection.

Well honestly, that's just because the s/l was bastardized beyond the pale. I mean, not even zombies would go with what happened to these characters along those lines, it's ludicrous.

I had a few of what Cagey called shower thoughts or... something like that, this morning. I read a bit from another board where people were, until a few days ago anyway, still reading spoilers, and still *fervently* hoping for a Beach Scene. Like: an actual romantic walk (not a 3-second stroll) with a proposal. From nat. And rings.

Now I can see how they got there, but it just made me so sad for them. Maybe I should be saying O Sneerk! You silly girlz, how *could* you be so foolish. Part of me feels like that is just the purest masochism and anyone with a single "hope" for... anything, from this show, really is just stretching out in the middle of the highway and saying Take Me I'm Yours to the big trucks barrelling down on them. But part of me thinks: *my* heart is just a muscle. Is their kind of naivety so terrible, really? Willful as it may be?


I also had a long series of thoughts about Entre Nous. This isn't very well-ordered, I'm sorry about that. Entre Nous parallels this storyline in absolutely no *real* way, because Entre Nous is an A-list film, and GL is a Z-grade soap. Speaking for myself alone, to the extent they turned an original story into a parody of itself, the concomitant transformation of these characters into more stock types--"little femmey Nat", as Abzug put it (which makes Liv more butch... I can't address all that, actually, it does bad things to my b.p.)--leaves a LOT to be desired. Everything: it's like watching something melt into lumps of clay, some twisted kind of devolution.

But before the stereotypes, there were simply: characteristics. Lena spends a lot of Entre Nous doing very typical housewifey things, girl-things, as a way to cope with her living situation and her husband. Among the strategies she employs are lying about money, sexually manipulating her husband (she does remarkably little of that, actually--no accident, I think: not with sex, proper, anyway); she pouts, &tc. She offers him the form of what he wants in exchange for substance.

When she realizes what her feelings for Madelaine really are, she's frightened (and everything else that comes with the territory), but most of all, she continues to try and come up with compromise solutions: she doesn't want to make this decision.

Any of these things sounding familiar? In part they're familiar because this is how these struggles play out. In part, however, there might be real parallels because this is the prototype for straight/straight female romances. Just speculatin' on a hypothesis. Dunno: still turning it over.

There are 2 critical scenes in Entre Nous, both near or at the end: there's the scene where Lena seeks out Madelaine at her home, in the arbor; M's had a breakdown, has given up hope that they'll ever be a couple. It's wordless: I mean, there is no dialogue. We see just how fragile Madelaine really is, and exactly how strong Lena is capable of being. An understanding is reached and a balance is met. It's a gorgeous scene.

And there's the closing scene, where Lena lays out the law for her husband (about to be former-), Michel. She's very polite, very formal, and absolutely brutal with him: uncompromising, and not particularly kind. She can't help it: in making her choice, this is how things have to be. There isn't any particularly kind way to make it clear to him. It's a very tough ending to the film, but a very fair one: Madelaine is her choice, and people get hurt, and that's life.

But what I'm trying to get at is, that core strength that Lena has, the fierce protectiveness we see in the arbor scene, the ability to move forward without any sort of compromise once she's made up her mind; and correspondingly, the brittle quality to Madelaine's character--the fact that she seems fearless, very strong, she's the artistic free-spirit throughout most of this film, but it comes with a price; there's a reversal in those scenes as we see what different kinds of strength are made of, for both characters; there's a sharing of the burdens and responsibilities that will come with the choice they're both making. Entre Nous does that without labels and without roles, not only because it's a period piece but because it's art, and the best kind of films show us more than they feel the need to tell us... anything. Entre Nous just tells its story. We can take our own conclusions from it.


Guiding Light couldn't give us any of that, of course: it is inferior in every way. It's a little mad to even be comparing the two, a feature film to a tv soap. But there are literally almost no cinematic precedents for this kind of relationship (the Children's Hour was their early reference, not mine). At any rate, GL shows us an outline, and reads us the moral from the bottom of the page. It doesn't show us anything, so it insists on telling us everything: everything that we do not need to know. But it should have been able to give us a little bit more: a bit more of Nat's strength, a bit more of Olivia's vulnerability, and most of all, a scene that really socked it to us where we get a sense of how these balance each other, without the prop of a Baby between them, which serves to literally infantalize what should have been a very grown-up storyline.
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solitasolano
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Loved that movie. Saw it when it came out in 1984.
ekny
 
There's the scene where Lena seeks out Madelaine at her home, in the arbor; M's had a breakdown, has given up that they'll ever be a couple. It's wordless: I mean, there is no dialogue. We see just how fragile Madelaine really is, and exactly how strong Lena is capable of being. An understanding is reached and a balance is met. It's a gorgeous scene.

Especially since "weak" Lena has come to retrieve her "strong" Madelaine. As I recall they drive off together. (Do not watch this film on LOGO, it's cut to shreds for TV).

But help me. Since this film was bought up earlier in this thread, I've been racking my aging brain to recall what the third caption was at the end of the movie. I believe the card played over the long shot looking back at the house, Madelaine on the beach with the kids, Lena having just sent off the dad.

The two I remember, which were totally telling to me in case you didn't GET the relationship between the two women and who they would be to the filmmaker, Diane Kruys, (she said Lena was based on her mother) were:

"My mother never saw my father again."

"Madelaine died two years ago."


Like I said, there was a third caption on the same title card and I cannot for the life of me remember what it is?
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abzug
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I have the vaguest flicker of memory that the third caption was about the filmmaker herself, but other than that, I don't recall at all.

All this discussion of Entre Nous makes me want to see it again. The sad thing, in the context of GL, was that the characters of Olivia and Natalia had the potential to have this level of nuance, in terms of their relationship dynamic. I mean, the raw materials were there, particularly for Olivia, but really for both of them and the ways their personalities complement each other. But once the show got cancelled the writers weren't able (or willing) to explore it. A missed opportunity, for sure. I guess in the end it's extremely difficult to sustain good storytelling for more than a few months when it comes to the pace of daytime. So you get spurts of greatness (with some flickers of lameness mixed in), and then crap with flickers of greatness mixed in. With the whole mix leaning more towards the crap.

ekny
 
Part of me feels like that is just the purest masochism and anyone with a single "hope" for... anything, from this show, really is just stretching out in the middle of the highway and saying Take Me I'm Yours to the big trucks barrelling down on them. But part of me thinks: *my* heart is just a muscle. Is their kind of naivety so terrible, really? Willful as it may be?

This is about as deep an existential question as they come. I remember reading an article about optimism and pessimism, and feeling a sense of self-satisfied glee when the researchers concluded that pessimists are much more accurate in their predictions of how something will turn out. Until the researchers went on to add that, even though they were wrong a lot more, the optimists were much happier. And then I started to question my need to be right,* and why I was putting that head of my need to be happy.

*To give a kind of stark example, the week before my partner was diagnosed with cancer last summer, she and I got into a fight where I told her I was worried about her health because I was worried she'd get cancer. And then a week later she got this call from the doctor. So, gee, my worrywart/pessimist personality has amazing predictive powers, and that made my life better how? It didn't get her diagnosed any sooner, and it didn't make her go into remission (she did that on her own, with the help of the lovely oncologists at Sloan-Kettering).

So, more power to the folks with the romantic, optimistic souls, I say. But they shouldn't be writing media analysis. That's got to stay in the hands of cynical critics like us. :)
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ekny
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The third caption, as I recall was: this movie is dedicated to all three of them, or, to the memory of all three of them--something like that.

The thing is: I didn't *want* to be right--not this way. But after just as many years watching media as the rest of y'all (give or take)--well. You know. The rough outline was extremely clear, right from the start. In a way, being unfamiliar with this--whatever, format, call it--makes that stuff much easier to see.

There's a learning curve. You start & just see the block of wood or whatever. Then details become clear. Then you learn about the carving tools involved & the people who do it and their backgrounds & how it's been done in the past, & the details multiply unto infinity. Then you step back and it's like: um. That was interesting but--still the same block of wood.
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cagey
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I might have something to add to the entre nous upon Entre Nous (Coupe de Foudre), but I need to contemplate more.

Just watched today's whole ep - on a gigantic 19 inch tv - one of about 6 eps I've seen in the format for which it was intended. I am always struck by the depth and color compared to cbs.com or YT clips.

Olivia was in for one passing line, to Remy, upon the occasion of his learning that the last drunk marriage (not even going to mention that stereotype) wasn't legal and he wasn't married. (Oh but Christina is pregnant - fucking baby boom in Springfield.) To which she replied that she was very happy not to be married. Take that subtext for all you can!

Otherwise - I come from an ashes scattering clan and we would never dip our hands in, wipe it on our shirts or kiss it goodbye. That was one truly odd ashes scattering scene.

And it seems "Berkeley" is Berkeley College, located somewhere in the 510 area code. This makes me happy considering the current cuts on the budget of UC Berkeley not even Daisy would want to go there.

Cyrus made cookies for Mel's birthday - not using Natalia's patented recipe - but still they ended up in bed in a moment that was so out of context that it might as well have been Olivia and Natalia emerging from the sheets. Guess someone thought some light comedy was required at that point in the show.

But just to keep the meme alive, Aunt Alex's old flame Fletcher reappeared and Dr. Ed knocked on Holly's door to offer her a cruise around the world. More carpe diem and live in the moment. So by the end, as with all great Shakespearean comedy, all couples will be paired if not married off.
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ekny
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eta: Solitasolano, there is no driving off at the end, the scene at the beach-house is the closing scene, with Lena on the porch with Michel, Sophie looking on; closing shot includes Madelaine down on the beach with the other children, camera taking in the whole house & tableau. I can remember because I can see the text in the upper right-hand corner of the screen in my mind's eye; the rest of the shot encompasses the figures on the beach and the house proper. As I recall. :)
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