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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,217 Views)
abzug
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In love with a prisoner
Thank you, e, for being more articulate than I was able to be about why today (and most of this week, after Monday) completely sucked.

ekny
 
And there is no way I'm watching Venice, CC's fabulosity notwithstanding. Just no way, after this nightmare.

Why? Because she uses the word "soap" to describe it? I personally don't see a reason why GL's patriarchal heteronormativity should carry over into Venice at all. The only thing connecting the two is the star and the lesbian angle. But Venice is produced by women, written and directed by lesbians, and isn't under the thumb of a network. The writing could still be crap, as could the production values, but otherwise I don't necessarily think GL's failures should taint Venice. And I've been known to enjoy prime time "soaps" after all.
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abzug
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Interview with Ellen Wheeler who is obviously incredibly comfortable spouting the party line. Here's what she has to say about the lack of a phyiscal relationship between Liv and Nat:
Quote:
 
Surely you’re aware that the “Otalia” fanbase is unhappy with the couple’s lack of physical intimacy. Any response to the complaints that you got cold feet?
I am very satisfied with where Natalia and Olivia end up. Their story came into being when I was asking for [more] romance on the show. And I’m not just talking about flowers and candles and sexual romance. I mean a romance in the sense that love is this grander, broader spectrum through which we look at all things. We wanted to explore the romantic nature of all kinds of love, between parents and children, between friends. Just watching Olivia and Natalia become friends was so precious.

But why so stingy with the kisses?
In developing the end of their story, I found myself wishing we had another year to watch all parts of their relationship as it bloomed and changed. But we did as much as we could on the way out.
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molsongrrrl
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Quote:
 
The only way I could ever watch this week's clips again would be without the sound: CC & JL kept bringing it (to the extremely limited extent they were permitted)


Word. The only saving grace for Otalia Act II and III has been CC and JL. If not for them, this thing would have been much much worse (as difficult as that is to believe considering how awful this storyline has ended).

And EW's answer to the physical intimacy questions? Bullshit. Cyrus and Mel were a new couple and were kissing and having sex immediately. Blake and Frank were a new couple and kissed. Try again EW. You suck.

Such a waste and a sad display. I want to feel as badly as I did when Another World ended. But I don't. What I feel sad about is how crappy this ending was. How sloppy and poorly put together it was. How there wasn't anything emotionally resonating about it because so little effort was put into it. EW should never work again. And really neither should JLH.

Olivia and Natalia weren't the only ones sacrificed to the Cooper black hole of suck - the entire show was (was Shayne even a viable character once Dinah left and he got pulled into Marina's orbit? Blake has done nothing but hang around Company for weeks now).

I don't understand it at all, but I am happy to be free of this show. Oh and yay! I won't have to watch Reva or the Cooper's anymore!
There's nothing wrong with you that a little Prozac and a polo mallet can't cure.
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ekny
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abzug
 
Thank you, e, for being more articulate than I was able to be about why today (and most of this week, after Monday) completely sucked.

Thank *you*. Fury makes me articulate. Ah... more than usual, anyway. My guess is when I calm down I'll be able to look back at some of this & feel slightly less bilious--but this last week was utter bullshit. I am... so *dismayed*, really. Very demoralizing, this whole business.

The fact that EW can spout such errant horseshit like a True Believer tells me--she is. There's no reasoning with those kinds of people. In her career she trusts. She sees no disparity here, no inequity--& no amount of screaming by sexed up minorities will every convince her otherwise. So, let me repeat, calmly, patiently, since she obviously has a slow learning curve and needs to be educated in a tolerant, earnest fashion about the shortcomings of her storyline, from one Ellen to another, in all sincerity: Ellen Wheeler can suck my lesbian dick.


I now have to reconcile having spent this much time on a show that Hallmark-carded me to death. I feel I've been more than reasonable with it; tried to learn what I could & to keep my stupid lesbian point of view out of the picture cause after all: it wasn't about me. But this last week pretty much defines adding insult to injury.

Conclusion:

Insulting your audience this greviously actually is politically effective: it radicalizes them.

Apparently this trick works with actors, too.
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cagey
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I just watched the show go off the air. No wonder you girls are upset - that Olivia was flirting shamelessly with Reva - she held her hand AND she gave her a chin chuck of love. I can just imagine the trials Natalia went through over the next 12 months as Olivia and Reva moved from being enemies to being friends to being more than friends. Good thing Reva came to her senses in time and ran off to meet Josh at the lighthouse. No wonder we don't see much of the two mommies in the flash forward - I bet Olivia is seriously in the dog house and has lots of making up to do. But she will, because, as the opening title to todays show made clear the guiding principle is FAMILY.

And if I were James I would be worried as well - that Ashlee, with her Lesbian mom - sharing an apartment in California with Daisy and as they drove off together -- yup, holding hands. It's only a matter of time before those two best friends to explore the romantic nature of love between friends.

It is a good thing the Coopers are so welcoming. Poor Marina bemoaning being the only female Cooper and look - a year later she's got Lillian, Natalia, Olivia, Francesca. Frank and Buzz are going to have their work cut out for them.

It disturbed me that those snooty Spauldings are so aloof - sipping champagne with their friends at Spaulding Manor -- baseball is obviously not good enough for them. In fact, from the way Olivia was dressed, I wouldn't be surprised if she was hanging out with them until Natalia gave her another chance.

I am sure going to miss all their crazy antics. If only the show hadn't been cancelled - I feel sure that they might have kissed by Christmas.
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abzug
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cagey, you cracked me up. And I needed a laugh, after the travesty which was today's episode. A friend of mine who watches the show described herself as "blue balled" (this was in the context of looking forward to Venice, as it couldn't be any worse) and I thought that pretty much summed it up, and with such vivid imagery!
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solitasolano
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That was retarded. Every story has a beginning, middle, and an end. Guess it’s hard to end a story that is never supposed to end. GL had no middle and just now tried to end. A dud of a sparkler for sure.

Don’t really have anymore to say here at the end of my day….’cept you all know I had a great time. (ek, sorry if my RITVP Olivia Freakin’ Spencer tribute hung up your dial up.) I’m now going back to read comments for the day and then comment.

****************************

abzug
 
The Otalia scenes in this episode emphasized all the heteronormative/patriarchal things. I mean, seriously, the first time we see the baby FRANK is holding her and Nat is nowhere to be seen, let alone Olivia? And they didn't seem to think it was important to show us Liv interacting with the baby at all. Today really wound up being about Frank more than Liv and Nat, and that is just ANNOYING.
Word. Although, wrong, there was one shot of the Rivera-Spencer family, the 4 girls only with Olivia googooed in little one. What was with the hat? Damn, I’ll never know. (Goth polish all the way though, of course.)


ekny
 
Let's face it: this show is about as heterosexual as it's possible to be. It believes in heterosexuality, heterosexuality is its cause celebre. The fact a lesbian BFF storyline got on here at all is fairly remarkable. The fact that it thrived was due to a convergence of factors. The fact that it failed, however, is typical, and also due to a convergence of factors. Really, there's nothing surprising here at all in the long run, except for the virulent homophobia of whatever individual shut this down….It's too bad, but not a surprise.
Word. Pretty straight out there in the world, let me tell you.

molsongrrrl
 
And EW's answer to the physical intimacy questions? Bullshit. Cyrus and Mel were a new couple and were kissing and having sex immediately. Blake and Frank were a new couple and kissed. Try again EW. You suck.
What she said. (and thanks for letting use your pics}

Ellen Wheeler
 
Just watching Olivia and Natalia become friends was so precious.

Hah, it finally comes out. Even the executive producer thinks Otalia are “just friends”. Pretty much should be the end of the story. EW can’t even hear was she herself says. OMG, throw up now.

ekny
 
Ellen Wheeler can suck my lesbian dick.
Well said. EW, may you never work in this town again.

cagey
 
I bet Olivia is seriously in the dog house and has lots of making up to do. But she will, because, as the opening title to todays show made clear the guiding principle is FAMILY……If only the show hadn't been cancelled - I feel sure that they might have kissed by Christmas.

LOL. You think? Not from what I could tell….
btw, the opening caption before a quick montage of GL title cards read, ““there is a destiny that makes us Family.”


Now I’m going to go back and see what the very first thing I ever posted was in this thread.
me
June 22, 2009, 2; 11 am
Delurkering notice:
Can I just say that you all have thoroughly entertained me with a show I don't even watch. Last weekend I a noticed a peak in posting here. After checking out some youtubes, surmising that Otalia hadn't even kissed; I still couldn't say away from my third party observing.

Thanks and, please do carry on.
Appreciatively, ss


And that, my friends, is just as true today. I have been thoroughly entertained. So with thanks and appreciation, bye bye Otalia.
ss
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traveller
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Well, Guiding Light has come to an end.

It will be interesting to see if you all discuss Venice with such passion. :innocent

I am going to miss my daily fix of Otalia discussions!

I want to thank you all for the many hours of enjoyable reading. :girlygiggle :clap


Life is a succession of lessons which must be lived to be understood ..... Helen Keller

No one can make you feel inferior without your consent .... Eleanor Roosevelt

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ekny
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Mädchen in Uniform (1931, Sagan) features a lesbian kiss that, although brief, is romantic, completely infused with erotic desire, and entirely unapologetic. The lead-up (from the time Fräulein von Bernburg enters the girls' dorm) lasts at least two minutes, building anticipation; the camerawork privileges the kiss--which is, of course, a crucial story element. In a film with an articulate critique of 'Prussianism'; in a Germany already turning towards something infinitely uglier. And that is what it means to be "subversive". Just in case anyone needed reminding or help with the concept.

In a film made almost 80 years ago.

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abzug
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Thanks for those screen captures, e. Does put things in perspective, although of course that's Germany, and if anyone has watched any of the lesbian storylines from Verbotene Liebe, the German soap, they'll see that clearly Germany has progressed just as they should in their comfort with seeing lesbian stuff on screen.

I also realized that what truly pisses me off about the things JLH and EW have said about this storyline (EW in this most recent interview, JLH at the Paley Ctr thing to Colleen) is that they are saying this is the way they wanted to tell the story, and that they think what they've told is truthful to the characters and the genre. They could have said "We were worried our audiences wouldn't be comfortable with something that was new to them." They could have said "CBS/P&G was worried our audiences wouldn't be comfortable...." But no, they actually are saying they think this was the right way to tell the story. So I'm back to having to draw one of two conclusions:

1. They are liars

2. They don't understand the first thing about how it feels for a formerly straight woman to fall in love with her best friend, because if they did, they'd know these two women would be aching to kiss each other, touch each other, fuck each other, no matter how scared they also might be about the prospect.

Oh, and had another thought about the Frank/Francesa/diaper-changing moment. Rather than it being patriarchal (by making Frank's paternity more important than Francesca's moms) it was also putting Frank in the 'female' role (changing diapers). It was also the first time we heard him describe Olivia as Francesca's mother, which was definitely a concept he had a hard time with when Nat was pregnant. So, more depiction/support of alternative family arrangements and gender roles, basically.

And I agree with everyone who has said that this adventure with you all has been a blast. Despite the frustrations of the storyline (and there have been MANY) discussing it with such intelligent. interesting people while it was being broadcast was an absolute treat. I will miss it!
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ekny
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I was thinking the same things this morning, Abzug.

They are liars--and hypocrits. Superficially, there's the professional issue: what they feel they must do to save their jobs and their reputations. I have nothing but contempt for that. These are privileged people with a corresponding responsibility for their high salaries and slice of the audience pie. They should act like it and show some backbone.

But see... they don't think so. Because they are also: their own audience. And the things they cannot address within themselves are the same things they cannot address in their storyline--or respond to in the audience segment that feels so burned. These are, above all I think it's safe to say, fundamentally (no accident) straight women. They know how the romance feels--but that other stuff about those not-nice words you were using: that's ucky, and scary. They can't address what they can't address. (Or refuse to address.) So the storyline enacts that exteme disconnect.
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cagey
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Watching GL lo the long months two things have comforted me: first and foremost, the thoughtful and impassioned discussion here and second that where a soap opera really lives, according to the academic blather, is in the mind of the viewer. The story on screen is but an outline, the depth and color are filled in by the viewer as she mulls over scenes, discusses them with friends and amplifies the true meaning of what she has seen.

abzug, for example, was spot on the other day referring to Liv and Nat rushing home from the wedding for a quick frolic in the hay prior to making sandwiches. This is, I concur, the only plausible explanation for why Liv was sucking her finger.

For my last few sodden morning thoughts about Otalia and yesterday's kiss off:

That discussion between Olivia and Natalia regarding Frank being left out. I distinctly heard that as Olivia says, "if we name the baby after Frank it will be easier to dump all the noisome aspects of having a newborn on him and give us more time to fully explore what Together means, if you catch my drift." Natalia's knowing smile indicated that she most certainly did.

"We love the smell of newborn babies" - it came to me that the pregnancy, rather than an impediment to their relationship is the metaphor for their relationship. Long gestating and the two of them so eager for it to be born. Upon this, solitasolano I can confidently estimate Christmas, one year from when they first began to feel the tingles of exploring romantic love between best friends, as the date for consummation.

Finally - the Hat. Olivia carefully explains to Natalia the value of dumping your child, early and often, on every available caregiver. They leave the infant with Frank (note the telling line about her mommies are never around when it is time to change diapers) and the two of them depart for Paris to indulge in the long awaited shopping expedition that will get Natalia out of that truly unfortunate collection of blue dresses.

They return in Springfield with just enough time for Natalia to change back into an unfortunate blue dress, grab Emma and rush to meet Rafe's bus. But Olivia, didn't have time to change and is still *wearing a hat.*



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abzug
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cagey
Sep 19 2009, 12:16 PM
That discussion between Olivia and Natalia regarding Frank being left out. I distinctly heard that as Olivia says, "if we name the baby after Frank it will be easier to dump all the noisome aspects of having a newborn on him and give us more time to fully explore what Together means, if you catch my drift." Natalia's knowing smile indicated that she most certainly did.

cagey, I think your reading of this exchange is remarkably astute. Thank you so much for translating it for me. I obviously need to get my hearing checked for not catching this right away.

cagey
 
"We love the smell of newborn babies" - it came to me that the pregnancy, rather than an impediment to their relationship is the metaphor for their relationship.  Long gestating and the two of them so eager for it to be born. 

Oooh, love it! So, this relationship was cookies, sandwiches, coffee, and now babies. But never hot lesbian fucking.

cagey
 
Upon this, solitasolano I can confidently estimate Christmas, one year from when they first began to feel the tingles of exploring romantic love between best friends, as the date for consummation.

OK, seriously for a second--don't you think that Olivia was in love with Nat WAY before Christmas? I mean, at least November, if not earlier. She just started to DO things for Nat, to make these grand gestures which were so caretaking, which were anticipating Nat's needs and meeting (or exceeding) them. I mean, maybe even as early as the scene where Olivia chases Nat to give her her cell phone when Rafe calls, even though her heart is so screwed up she can barely catch her breath. I think that was in September?

cagey
 
But Olivia, didn't have time to change and is still *wearing a hat.*

God, could this really be why Liv was in that ridiculous getup? Because otherwise I just don't get it. It made her seem so separate and standoffish, unlike everyone else who was in casual sporty mode.
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solitasolano
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cagey, he he, I follow on all accounts. Xmas it is.

Now that the "bitter" has been laughed away,my comments below would have been longer but they have been giggled away.

ekny
 
They are liars--and hypocrits.

You're being kind.

abzug
 
They don't understand the first thing about how it feels for a formerly straight woman to fall in love with her best friend, because if they did, they'd know these two women would be aching to kiss each other, touch each other, fuck each other, no matter how scared they also might be about the prospect.

And you are stating the obvious.

I can't even look at pictures from the production with those two responsible for the mess for the last months.

Don't shoot me, after my knee jerk response when I realized that Fr**k was the first one to be seen with baby girl Rivera-Spencer, I loved him referencing her "two mommies". The mention completed a circle for me by referencing back to when the story revealed the truth of the situation. Besides, now thanks to cagey I know my girls, O and N, are off exploring being together.

Don't shoot me 2, but you know, Fr**k had my favorite line from the epi:
"I really enjoy talking to you online." :silly


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ekny
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Cagey, I think you just redefined Dry. Touché and yes indeed: Otalia gave birth to... Yes, Ms Spencer-Rivera, it's--ho ho ho!--a bouncing baby metaphor! The prosthesis o luv. Party toys all round. Deadbolts included.

In fact if we take the short drabble someone showed me the other week, involving Olivia impregnating Nat with eye-sex alone, I think your trajectory... trajects nicely. Including the space-age plastics.

This fandom is begging on its knees for some fierce parodies. Begging with rug-rash and Keene-doll eyes. Yes it is. Good fandom: bark! Now roll over.

Sorry. This fugue-state brought to you by the newly brain-dead. Spent the last 3 hours burning massive amounts of data to discs: I can't quite bring myself to just put all that shit in the recycle bin where it so belongs, but at least I now have reclaimed all my missing hard drive space and can defrag properly.

The metaphor continues.
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