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Otalia - Guiding Light
Topic Started: Mar 29 2009, 06:54 PM (21,215 Views)
abzug
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In love with a prisoner
cagey
 
In some ways, I sorta like the way Otalia is presented as in community but not quite the same as all the other couples. Cause we aren't. Lack of kissing is perhaps not the best way to demonstrate this, but hey, my soap is in my mind and the girls are having an excellent time there.

:rofl :rofl :rofl

cagey
 
She has entered a state of together coupledom (which, for the sake of sanity I presume to be sexual in nature) - a state she has long desired and yet she has systematically fucked up at every opportunity with all the men in her life. If not for the steadfast refusal of Natalia to take no for an answer, Olivia would have fucked it up again.

This reminded me that in this one way, Nat's character has been incredibly consistent since the start of this storyline. At every turn she has refused to allow Olivia to self-sabotage, starting from Liv's depressive suicidal impulses after the heart transplant.

This highlights the fundamental difference between Nat and Frank, and why (to return to e's original post) I don't agree that Liv married "Frank" in the form of Nat. Frank domineers to get what's best for him, with no insight into what's best for the other person he's domineering. Nat on the other hand domineers (as does Liv, for that matter) with a laser-like focus on what's best for the other person. She nurses Liv back to health after the heart transplant. She keeps Liv from attacking Phillip. She lies to protect Liv's job. She refuses to let Liv give up on love.

Although she's not as articulate about it as we would have liked, as cagey pointed out, she does acknowledge that she understands how she hurt Liv, and why Liv is pushing her away. Frank NEVER understood why Nat pushed him away.

cagey
 
To go further into Olivia's insecurities is to get downright therapeutic.

I would have liked to see it though. :)

cagey
 
A final note, for abzug if it helps the perspective, in the Debates section some of the more engaging topics have a ratio of 45, 50 or even 65 viewers/post. Over here in our sandbox, it is more like 14:1.

This actually made me feel much better. Thank you.

ekny
 
I was going out of my way not to use terms like character assassination because I think they're shortcuts and we can't learn anything from shortcuts other than that when some people are done discussing X or Y they shove it under a convenient heading. People have been screaming "shenanigans" and "character assassination" since June. What does it tell me in the case of GL other than that some people don't like pregnancy plots for lesbian storylines? That some people also like screaming in public?

I think I've been pretty clear I didn't mind the pregnancy subplot. I do agree a term like "character assassination" is a shortcut, but it's not a shortcut you can't learn from. It's an abbreviation for the situation where writers change the personality of a character which has previously been relatively consistent, in order to serve some plot they've concocted, or some storyline resolution which wasn't earned. To me it's like using the word "lesbian" when what you really mean is a woman who primarily relates to other women in her romantic, emotional and sexual life; or a relationship between two women which is romantic/sexual, etc etc etc. Labels and shortcuts help us discuss things without having to explain what we mean every time.

So in the case of Nat, what I'm saying is that I have a hard time drawing conclusions about Nat, or about Nat and Liv's relationship, based on Nat's behavior in the final 10-12 weeks of Guiding Light. Because it seems to me the writers stopped trying to write for the character they created, and instead just started writing some plot to draw the storyline to a close.

Now, one could argue that Olivia's character was assassinated as well, because she lost her combative fire, and instead became happy and sweet and nice to assholes like Rafe. :)
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abzug
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I think it was e who said this whole storyline is so ripe for parody/satire. This put a smile on my face:
http://otalia.ausxip.com/
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cagey
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abzug
Sep 23 2009, 02:21 PM
So in the case of Nat, what I'm saying is that I have a hard time drawing conclusions about Nat, or about Nat and Liv's relationship, based on Nat's behavior in the final 10-12 weeks of Guiding Light. Because it seems to me the writers stopped trying to write for the character they created, and instead just started writing some plot to draw the storyline to a close.

Now, one could argue that Olivia's character was assassinated as well, because she lost her combative fire, and instead became happy and sweet and nice to assholes like Rafe. :)

I have two issues with using "character assassination" in regards to Natalia. First: there isn't much character to assassinate. She was only in Springfield for a couple of years and has very little definition outside of her relationship to the men in her life: Rafe, Gus, Frank and Jesus. Where we see her character develop is in her relationship with Olivia, which is a scant year at best, to get to know who Natalia is and how she should react emotionally.

Second, I feel the character was reborn in the best sense upon her return. Her stint in the nunnery taught her to not be afraid of life. Somewhere back there she had some very important line to Olivia that basically said the best survival strategy for people like her was to be a doormat. She returns to Springfield no longer a doormat, no longer worried about what she feels or what other people feel. This is all to the good, isn't it?

I continue to think that her intention to include Frank is a nice gesture - and considering the facts of the situation, politically very astute. But she is not a doormat to him, in spite of how hard the script might try to suggest it. She deferred to him never.

However, your other point, about Olivia - there I think you are on to something and I think that is one reason why the ending is so enraging.

Frankly, I don't think much of what could be called "plot" was written after the 4th of July. Scenes were concocted to convey something - possibly emotion, possibly just a shout out to history. Olivia's story line during Nat's absence made absolutely no narrative sense. She's enraged; she's sullen; she's drunk; she's horny - but none of the scenes connect with the other. And then, in typical soap fashion, the day before Nat's return, she decides it's over and she is moving on, back to men, punto chiuso.

At the best what we get from this is Olivia physically cannot live as long as she is obsessed with Natalia. <spew>. So Liv chooses Life, which is to say, blocking Natalia re-entry into her orbit and now Nat seems pushy, because we are invested in Olivia staying alive. When she shows up at the sonogram, where in the birth of a girl is revealed, there's a strong implication that this is Olivia's rebirth as well; she is Natalia's daughter <bucket, where's the bucket? I'm gagging here>

Afterwhich they are hardly seen apart and are always touching. Umbilical anyone?

The story just doesn't hold up to close examination. But it can lead to hallucination.
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solitasolano
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cagey
 
Somewhere back there she had some very important line to Olivia that basically said the best survival strategy for people like her was to be a doormat.

Natalia didn't identify herself as a doormat, she said she had to work within and depend on the system. Can't provide the actual yt link because while I was looking for the actual quote I found a different one to support your last statement.
cagey
 
there's a strong implication that this is Olivia's rebirth as well; she is Natalia's daughter

Even Olivia thought so.
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ekny
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I thought the July writing for Olivia (minus the Chicago nonsense) made perfect sense: those are at least 4 out of the 5 Kubler-Ross stages. (Assuming you think they're valid: I don't know that scientific research has entirely verified or discounted them--or can. Either those sorts of theories work or make sense for you when you need them or they don't.) The stages sometimes work when looking at catastrophic loss as well as death--and for Olivia, you can go either way: the loss of Nat in July may be a kind of metaphoric death, for Olivia; it is certainly a catastrophic loss. Depression, anger, denial, bargaining. She never made it to acceptance because, of course, she can't accept this.
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abzug
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solitasolano
Sep 24 2009, 01:21 AM

I loooooooooooooove Dinner with Decker! These were the first clips I watched. Ah, the good ole days.

ekny
 
She never made it to acceptance because, of course, she can't accept this.

Don't you think at the tail end she made it to acceptance? I mean, that's what made Nat's return ironic, and difficult, because Olivia had just started to accept that Nat was never coming back, and that she needed to move on. Had Nat returned a week (or even a few days) earlier, she might have had an easier time getting Liv to take her back.

I also agree that Liv's actions during Nat's absence were realistic, psychologically. It also gave us another Emmy-worthy episode for Crystal Chappell (the one where she runs around trying to figure out where Nat has gone, with that amazing scene with Frank where she tells him "It's not the same."). I also liked the way she interpreted the entire turn of events to make it about her own worthiness. It was a little heavy handed (as all things with this soap are), but again emotionally realistic to me.
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ekny
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abzug
Sep 24 2009, 08:36 AM
ekny
 
She never made it to acceptance because, of course, she can't accept this.

Don't you think at the tail end she made it to acceptance? I mean, that's what made Nat's return ironic, and difficult, because Olivia had just started to accept that Nat was never coming back, and that she needed to move on.

I think CC did a really good job of presenting both: that consciously, intellectually, Olivia's realized/decided she can't self-destruct because she has a daughter she needs to stick around for. I also felt she showed that this was basically kind of impossible: that Olivia would simply go back to being the same-ole Olivia, but even worse than before, in a way. Less flexible, more brittle & damaged. There was a scene that really brought that home to me but now, unfortunately, I can't think of it.

Quote:
 
I also agree that Liv's actions during Nat's absence were realistic, psychologically. It also gave us another Emmy-worthy episode for Crystal Chappell (the one where she runs around trying to figure out where Nat has gone, with that amazing scene with Frank where she tells him "It's not the same."). I also liked the way she interpreted the entire turn of events to make it about her own worthiness. It was a little heavy handed (as all things with this soap are), but again emotionally realistic to me.

Yeah, that's what I meant above, about being damaged. There were amazing performance moments for her throughout July, esp the first half, but of all, the image of Olivia just sitting on that couch sticks with me most. I think because she's a character I associate with movement, huge amounts of energy, and seeing her so still was *really* effective, psychologically.

A little heavy handed. :lol1 Oh my. You get this week's Understatement award. The interesting thing is, although Olivia is a sort of OTT character, she's also by far the most realistic/believable, because she's so well-acted & -understood by CC. So the soap's excesses couldn't really touch this character. They had to stop giving her lines, more or less, in order to properly subdue her.
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ekny
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This woman has some drabbles that work in places for me, some that are truly funny, but this is totally perfect. Abzug... girl, you gotta read this! :)

http://wicked-joy.livejournal.com/16908.html#cutid1
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abzug
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ekny
Sep 25 2009, 01:16 AM
This woman has some drabbles that work in places for me, some that are truly funny, but this is totally perfect. Abzug... girl, you gotta read this! :)

http://wicked-joy.livejournal.com/16908.html#cutid1

Oh my god. That was pure, absolute, complete and utter genius! It made me SOOOOO happy to read! Thank you for finding it and posting it!
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solitasolano
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Ditto, read some of the other ones too. My fave is the hairpulling sex one.

Plus we finally find out the name of Olivia's cardiologist. The ladies are networking that one for sure.
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ekny
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CC tweet to @unlessstated "Nat and O send Rafe off to army. I Kissed her cheek. Scene never made the show"
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abzug
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Wow, this shit's seriously fucked up. It's like the gatekeeping/censorship happens at SO many levels, by so many groups:
1. What gets written (writers, producers, networks)
3. What gets filmed (actors,* writers, producers, networks)
4. What makes it through editing (directors, producers, networks)

*What the actors feel comfortable with can clearly have such a big impact: CC trying to include something which feels natural to her, or, in the opposite situation, straight actors playing gay who are clearly at least a little uncomfortable and therefore hold back in various ways.
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ekny
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I'm still trying to get my head around the fact that someone felt compelled to edit out a kiss on the cheek. That's completely nuts. And am still flummoxed about this sort of conspiracy of silence about who's responsible. Which makes me think--actors aside--everyone is. But something definitely happened, to make them all so twitchy, secretive, and mute. That people refuse to point fingers makes them guilty of, at the very least, a kind of passive collusion. Because if we needed ANY more evidence (as if) that something went terribly awry here, a deleted kiss on the cheek is surely it. That's insane.

Nice breakdown on how many levels and in how many ways censorship takes place. Internal--what parts of the story the writers are willing to even consider showing; external--people afraid for their jobs, complying with the wishes/instructions of their superiors... what a huge mess. Cable or the web really seem like the only viable spaces.
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solitasolano
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CC
 
I kissed her cheek.  Scene never made the show.


Finally kissing and telling.
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abzug
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I think you're spot on about the internal and external pressures which play a role, and in the insular, ever-shrinking soap opera world, the risks of rocking the boat are HUGE, for writers, actors, exec producers, networks etc.
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