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Venice: the thread
Topic Started: Sep 17 2009, 10:22 PM (6,377 Views)
solitasolano
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The Muppets!
cagey
 
And I am not even reading the tweets.
You don't have to follow twitter. Allow me...Who said anything about pandering?

@nycwriterchick
 
Someone will be modeling Venice Panties very soon!! @crystalchappelll
4 minutes ago from TweetDeck

You've won the VENICE panty challenge!!!! 1000 panties in 5 hours!
5 minutes ago from TweetDeck

OMG 10 more panties to win V shop panty challenge!
12 minutes ago from TweetDeck

$15.95 x 1000 = well someone's getting paid after all, and Team V We Own IT haven't even put CC in those same V pink brief panties to promote sales now that the faithful fans have WON the panty challenge. Pretty amazing.

So cagey, are you going to wait for the V keychains to claim your bets? Or call in your Otalia IOU on the existing merchandise?
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ekny
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In love with a prisoner
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The merge between Otalia, CC/JL and Ani/Gina is getting just a bit odd.

That, I felt, was mainly just the girls doing their own marketing. I don't care enough about them to worry about it, put another way. They're not about to have a tawdry affair & leave their husbands, so who cares, if it's straight girls being cute or cuter? I do think everyone's responses will differ according to who they are, what their politics are, how invested they are in the actors, show, all that--how it balances in their heads. //2¢

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The part that keeps bothering me is a sense that the interpretation of lesbianism that is being created/promoted/invented here is one of romantic walks along the beach.

Effin amen. Why I was so thoroughly chapped about the Metaphysical comment.

Much bigger issue, to my way of thinking.
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abzug
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Man oh man. OK, I have to defend the metaphysical comment. I mean, seriously people, are we never happy? We'd complain if when they talked about two women being together they made it sound like it was just a physical/sexual thing and nothing more. Instead, we have a comment which is suggesting that the relationship was about a deep, soulmate kind of love. What is wrong with that? Yes, it was in the context of complaints about the lack of physical intimacy shown on screen, but CC and JL have both been clear in their feelings about that (it stunk, it didn't feel "natural" to them as actors or as characters), so why shouldn't they start emphasizing the emotional aspect of the relationship, since that's the part that worked well?

They're trying to keep something they clearly cared about and enjoyed doing (the Otalia storyline) from descending into a lament about what it lacked. From my perspective, I've been annoyed for months that no one seems to be talking explicitly about the illness of homophobia which pervades our pop culture, and that this illness is the cause of the no-kissing. If they aren't going to get explicitly political, then why shouldn't they talk about the metaphysical aspect of the relationship? AND, I'd argue that CC et al are being more effective political than so many of the rest of us, who flap our lips about injustice all the time, but never actually take action to fix what pisses us off. The Venice people thought the Otalia relationship was too limited by corporate America and so they decided to do their own thing which wouldn't be limited in this way.

On a related topic, I also don't have the tiniest problem with their marketing. They are building a fan base by investing a ton of their own time and energy, but without spending very much money. If the show is successful (meaning, lots of viewers, and potentially making a profit), it will be at least in part because they cultivated the fans. I want the show to be successful because that is its best chance of continuing beyond one season. So why would I look down my nose at their savvy efforts at promoting the project? Why is that something to criticize? They're doing a lot with very little in the way of resources, and yet we seem to be criticizing that there's no there there. But that's what makes it all the more impressive! And that's a GOOD thing as far as I'm concerned. Why should they only be able to start promoting themselves once they've started filming? Why limit them in that way?

Look, if the show winds up not being good, then this discussion is all moot. But I'm basing this on the assumption that it will be good, that it will be something I find compelling and want to watch.

Edited because "now" <> "not"
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abzug
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This Lesli Kay person, the third corner of the JL-CC lesbian love triangle, is certainly VERY attractive. And I have to admit to being kind of excited about a lesbian love triangle. I guess we had those on The L Word, so my excitement will only continue if the writing and acting on Venice are better than they were on The L Word.
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molsongrrrl
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writing and acting on Venice are better than they were on The L Word.


I'm pretty sure anything is better than what was going on on The L Word. Gawd how I hated most of that show.

I've watched Lesli Kay on As The World Turns and The Bold & The Beautiful. I really liked her on both shows - she's attractive and talented.
There's nothing wrong with you that a little Prozac and a polo mallet can't cure.
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solitasolano
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the writing and acting on Venice are better than they were on The L Word.
Oh please, I don't have to worry otherwise do I? I'm just assuming.

Hey, good for Team Venice. At this rate they won't be having to spend their own money to entertain me. I'm still wishing for more than 6 minutes at a time. Go Season 2.

I believe I'm guilty of a "no there there" comment in the past, and that was aimed at the VCommunity social network organization vs. message board format on the Vwebsite. I do fully expect to see a webseries and good all for whatever comes with it.
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cagey
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A word or two about metaphysical intimacy: That didn't bother me. I think it is an apt description of what the Otalia story's premise was. Thinking about the very limited room for originality or innovation with the soap opera format, it was strikingly original in not telling a same gender version of standard soap romance. The fact that it wasn't (work with me here) may have contributed to the sense of outrage that was felt about Kissing. And I am the least among us here as far as caring about where the kissing went. If one were to look at Otalia only as a same gender soap story, then the outrage at the double standard is boundless. Immediately the parallels are drawn to Bianca on AMC or the boys on ATWT. But at it's core, the story was about soulmates, or a higher form of love. In being so, it gave the actors an incredible chance to reach down for emotions and expression that don't come out in regular soap.

(Forgive me, I've now seen Carly stab Lawrence for I think the 8th time since Friday, while some dude named EJ has shrieked in a way that would make Reva proud for the last 4 days about Paternity.)

A word or two about marketing and pandering: About 20 pages ago on the Otalia thread we talked a bit about starting a thread about being lesbians responding to popular culture and mass media. Perhaps we should do just that and take this discussion of Venice's promotional efforts over there, leaving this one to be about the show once the show starts. I say this because I don't want to confuse the two. The story, I have hopes for. The marketing I want to look at critically - as a lesbian living in a highly consumerist economy and as someone whose had to promote things to the lesbian community. I don't feel like part of the V Community, I feel marketed at. I think the New Technology Viral Marketing concept is very interesting, but I am not feeling like I am being organized, I feel pandered to and commodified.

When I think about how much effort and time and love one must spend to convince people to watch Bad Girls, I ask myself - what would I do for Venice? Other than to tell the writers and producers to watch Bad Girls?

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solitasolano
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Team Venice must know about Bad Girls. It would be a crime if they didn't. :huh:
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abzug
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cagey
 
I don't feel like part of the V Community, I feel marketed at. I think the New Technology Viral Marketing concept is very interesting, but I am not feeling like I am being organized, I feel pandered to and commodified.

I'm swinging back and forth between two theories about this:

1. We lesbians are uncomfortable being marketed to this explicitly, because we're simply not used to it. If we were straight white housewives and turned on daytime tv, absolutely every ad we see would be targeted to us. We'd be used to the pandering, and (perhaps) feel free-er to make our own decisions about the products we want to consume.

2. The problem with viral marketing is that it dresses itself up as something else. An ad on tv is an ad--when we watch it we know its intentions. It doesn't pretend to be anything else. When Crystal et al post things on Twitter, run these contests, offer to pose in their underwear, they are ALSO marketing, but they're pretending to be friendly with fans. This feels inauthentic, suspicious, and untrustworthy.

But in terms of #2, since we KNOW that's what is going on, then why do we feel differently about it than if we were watching some tv ad that said "Hey, lesbian tv viewers! Yeah, you! We've got this new web series coming up, and we think you'll like it. The actors are hot, one of them is extremely talented, and we're going to actually show women kissing. So, hey, check it out and tell your friends. Thanks!"
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cagey
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abzug
 
1. We lesbians are uncomfortable being marketed to this explicitly, because we're simply not used to it. If we were straight white housewives and turned on daytime tv, absolutely every ad we see would be targeted to us. We'd be used to the pandering, and (perhaps) feel free-er to make our own decisions about the products we want to consume.

I totally agree that we are not comfortable with being marketed to by the mainstream. Even if CC and Co are making a "gay=centric" story, in a new medium, they are still very much mainstream players. But within the lesbian community we market to each other all the time, and this does not feel inauthentic. Someone produces a concert, opens a bakery or a bookstore, advertises her services as a dentist and none of that feels like pandering.

I wish I could cite the study that said that being aware that you are being marketed to doesn't actually increase your chances of making an informed decision based on information received in advertisements. Which is to say, every advertisement on tv is directed at us as well as to straight women - well except for the birth control, maybe. They could easily alter - as they did when it became apparent that US consumer society was not composed entirely of white people - the same scripts and have a lesbian worrying about what to make for dinner before her partner comes home. I'm not sure we would feel pandered to so much as tokenized - which is a very different offense.
abzug
 
2. The problem with viral marketing is that it dresses itself up as something else. An ad on tv is an ad--when we watch it we know its intentions. It doesn't pretend to be anything else. When Crystal et al post things on Twitter, run these contests, offer to pose in their underwear, they are ALSO marketing, but they're pretending to be friendly with fans. This feels inauthentic, suspicious, and untrustworthy.

Absolutely. To be effective, I think a viral buzz has to be ground up enthusiasm generated among equals; this seems more to be ginning up the fans by the producers. The result is giggly fans fawning for attention and then discussing among themselves if perchance they are being used.
abzug
 
But in terms of #2, since we KNOW that's what is going on, then why do we feel differently about it than if we were watching some tv ad that said "Hey, lesbian tv viewers! Yeah, you! We've got this new web series coming up, and we think you'll like it. The actors are hot, one of them is extremely talented, and we're going to actually show women kissing. So, hey, check it out and tell your friends. Thanks

Excellent summation of the essential problem: "Hey lesbians, we know the only thing you care about is hot chicks kissing, so come check out our new series, cause we care and we made it Just For You."
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abzug
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cagey
 
Excellent summation of the essential problem: "Hey lesbians, we know the only thing you care about is hot chicks kissing, so come check out our new series, cause we care and we made it Just For You."

Of course, that's pretty much exactly what the UK series "Far Out" is doing, and I don't see them gaining much traction or viewership. Certainly no one is talking about the series. So if straightforward = ineffective, then why should we even want the Venice producers to behave this way?

(I'm assuming, of course, that we want them to be successful because we want to have more media depicting lesbians available for us to watch.)
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cagey
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abzug
Oct 9 2009, 06:55 PM
cagey
 
Excellent summation of the essential problem: "Hey lesbians, we know the only thing you care about is hot chicks kissing, so come check out our new series, cause we care and we made it Just For You."

Of course, that's pretty much exactly what the UK series "Far Out" is doing, and I don't see them gaining much traction or viewership. Certainly no one is talking about the series. So if straightforward = ineffective, then why should we even want the Venice producers to behave this way?

(I'm assuming, of course, that we want them to be successful because we want to have more media depicting lesbians available for us to watch.)

"Hot chicks kissing just for you" was also the pitch for L Word, and see what we got.

What is essential is, as solitasolano brings up, a good story. I don't think most of us consider hot chicks kissing to be an advancement of lesbian visibility in the media. Neither is it what we are all yearning to see. We want a thought out story, with believable characters we can cheer and boo, who live in a world we recognize as true in spirit to our own (since so few of us are successful hotel designers living in Venice CA).

In that aspect I think it is very fortunate that Venice has some people involved who know about melodramatic, serial story telling. It suggests that the story might be good, and at the least, I hope, the plot won't be shoehorned in around a requisite number of hot chicks kissing or sorta having sex that some body thinks are the reason the lesbians (or the straight men) are watching.

So for me, the point is -- to what purpose are they marketing panties, and CC in panties, as a way to drum up interest in the show? I'm all for souvenir undies but the more I encounter the panty count the less I trust what the show will be bringing.
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abzug
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So if they're good at marketing they can't also be good at writing/directing/acting/producing? Is it a question of the talents being incompatible? Or that they might be investing energy in marketing that would better be spent on creative? Or that their marketing isn't substantive and therefore the show might not be either?

I don't think any of those suppositions I've just outlined stand up to logic--I could just as easily take the same evidence and draw the opposite conclusions of what the show is going to be. The fact is, we don't know the ratio of time & effort they're spending on marketing vs creative vs business. And at this point the only one whose talent we know is Crystal Chappell's, and I think we all agree she's a very good actor, and has relatively good taste in storytelling. Beyond that we have to wait and see how it's going to be.
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cagey
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So if they're good at marketing they can't also be good at writing/directing/acting/producing? Is it a question of the talents being incompatible? Or that they might be investing energy in marketing that would better be spent on creative? Or that their marketing isn't substantive and therefore the show might not be either?


Oh dear, I'm not saying that at all. Did it sound like that? I am saying their marketing is telling me one thing and their substantive discussions of what the story is going to be about are telling me another. I prefer to hear about the story and all I get is panties.

It is like someone marketing Romeo and Juliet by saying: Balcony Scene! You are gonna love the Balcony Scene! Major kissage!

My apologies again for reaching on an analogy. First Michelangelo and now Shakespeare.

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abzug
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Thanks--that analogy was genius, and I get what you're saying. I mean, in the end it comes down to the same thing for most/all of us, I think, which is that we're impatient to see Venice, and to see if it's going to be worthwhile. We don't like watching them stir everyone up, because at least in part, we're stirred up, and ambivalent about being stirred up. And it's hard for us to go along with the party, because we tend to be a group concerned with quality, so we can't get fully enthusiastic yet.
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