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ADVantage
Topic Started: Nov 3 2013, 03:09 AM (273 Views)
Alan
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Lax Bro
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Hey everyone.

One of the things I've been wanting to do for a while is ADV OU. All of my Pokemon games except for one were from that Gen (Ruby, Sapphire, Firered, Colosseum, XD, the Mystery Dungeons, Pinball...and then Diamond) and it was probably my favorite Gen of all time.

I've been browsing Smogon for the past while about other Gens, but I've found some pretty bad faults with the others
- RBY seems to be centered around the same 6 or 7 'Mons on every goddamn team
- GSC is wayyy too stall-based, everything has Curse and battles take like 200 turns (I've actually tried GSC)
- DPP is pretty close to BW...it just doesn't seem fresh, with the same BW standards like Washtom, Scizor, etc. running around
-XY lol 2 hipstr 4 dat (also my team is no longer kicking ass, at all - Relevant)

I really wanted to use Flygon, and some kind of Magneton for this team. Reading up on Smog, I realized they were fringe members of OU. Great! Who needs 'Mence anyway?
I tried to use less standards on this team, 'cuz I didn't want to be that guy with 'Mence, Gyara, Duggy, 'Gross, CurseLax or whatever, so here it is. I'd use Weezing if I could (one of my favorite 'Mons lol) but he just...wasn't good enough...

Posted Image
Gengar (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 48 HP / 128 Def / 156 SAtk / 176 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Thunderbolt
- Ice Punch
- Giga Drain
- Taunt / Will-O-Wisp / Destiny Bond

I really have no idea about this "lead" concept, as when I started playing, Japanese BW had just come out and I was already playing with the Wifi Clause. I'd been using Flygon as my lead for my first few battles, and it worked out okay, but Gengar has a great matchup against most of the common leads in ADV, so I went for him. Last move I wasn't sure what to pick. Ice Punch lets him outspeed and OHKO Salamence, Tbolt does decent damage against most other things, and Giga Drain, while weak, lets me hit 'Pert while netting me some HP. It took me a while to realize Taunt was only 2 turns this Gen (it doesn't tell you when it wears off), goddamn.

The weird spread lets me take a +1 252 Adamant Gyarados HP Flying so I can OHKO with Tbolt, and the HP gives me a Lefties number (I still can't figure out what the extra +1 in the formula is for, like the "divisible by 16 +1"). Speed lets me beat maxed 100s, not sure why Smog suggests sitting at 333 Speed, could someone explain that? .-.

Posted Image
Flygon (F) @ Leftovers
Ability: Levitate
EVs: 188 HP / 180 Atk / 140 Spd
Naughty Nature
IVs: 30 SDef / 30 Spd
- Earthquake
- Rock Slide
- Dragon Claw
- Hidden Power [Bug]

Here's Flygon, reasonably fast, reasonably powerful, and literally immune to residual damage. QuakeSlide give me optimal coverage, and Dragon Claw, while dumb-looking, gives me a strong attack on Salamence after Intimidate. HP Bug is purely for Celebi, I guess. Flygon hasn't been hitting nearly as hard as I'd imagined, but he's a pretty great pivot against tons of stuff (especially since so many electrics run HP Grass this Gen).

Posted Image
Magneton @ Leftovers
Ability: Magnet Pull
EVs: 68 HP / 252 SAtk / 188 Spd
Modest Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 Def
- Thunderbolt
- Hidden Power [Ice]
- Substitute
- Thunder Wave

Ever since I started using 'Zone in Gen 5 I've loved Magnet Pull. Anyway, this lets me play a bit more freely (especially with the lack of team preview) against other new players, since I don't really have to worry about Duggy coming in until 'Ton has done its job. Prediction against better players is tough though, since I've seen Duggy on most teams I've faced. The last move is really a filler, maybe I should try Endure + Salac .-. (Y/N?)

Posted Image
Cloyster (M) @ Leftovers
Ability: Shell Armor
EVs: 252 HP / 104 Def / 148 SAtk / 4 Spd
Bold Nature
IVs: 0 Atk
- Surf / Hidden Power [Electric]
- Spikes
- Rapid Spin
- Ice Beam

Cloyster's pretty cool to use in a pre-Stealth Rock gen. Of course, it's not as great as Milo, 'Pert, or 'Cune because of its unfortunate Ice-typing, but it still has more Defense than any of 'em. Ice Beam gets the OHKO on 'Mence, making Cloyster (usually) a good switch-in. It also hits any Grass type that wants to switch in for pretty solid damage. Surf is another high powered STAB that puts a dent in most things. What I love about Cloyster though is that it has so many chances to switch in and set up Spikes, and most of the Spinners I can think of are donked by either 'Gar or the magnets. Rapid Spin is pretty cool too.

HP Electric lets me check Gyarados better, and get a better hit on opposing waters but usually the damage output's abysmal.

Posted Image
Snorlax (M) @ Choice Band
Ability: Thick Fat
EVs: 52 HP / 252 Atk / 28 Def / 176 SDef
Adamant Nature
- Body Slam
- Earthquake
- Shadow Ball
- Selfdestruct

I didn't feel like an all-lefties team, and Snorlax provides the physical power that I need. Of course, it's tough to lock yourself in to one of three move types that Pokemon are immune to, but the damage output and the fact that Snorlax can come in on various Special moves is awesome. Selfdestruct gets the quick OHKO on CurseLax, and anything else that's set up a little too much for my liking.

Idk, should I have CurseLax here? I like the immediate power, but it sucks that Snorlax relies on 3 of the most exploitable move types to be locked into.

Posted Image
Celebi @ Leftovers
Ability: Natural Cure
EVs: 112 HP / 220 SAtk / 176 Spd
Timid Nature
IVs: 2 Atk / 30 SAtk
- Hidden Power [Grass]
- Calm Mind
- Recover
- Psychic

This was kind of a more offensive take on Smog's BP Celebi, I wanted something that could set up quick and hit hard. I'm not sure what significant base 90s there are in ADV, but I outspeed them with the Smog-suggested Speed. The HP is a lefties number, and the rest was dumped into SAtk for damage output. Celebi can set up on stuff like Magneton and P-2 (which is super annoying for my team), and proceed to do tons of damage even with a pretty terrible STAB combo, coverage-wise. Celebi can also absorb status, and heal up with Recover - it's essentially a one-'Mon team.


Welp, there you have it, I kinda threw it together pretty quickly but it's worked ok so far...I haven't been able to find many battles though. Sidenote - where's Quantum at these days?

Cheers!
Edited by Alan, Nov 3 2013, 04:36 AM.
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.49
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Elite
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Quote:
 
Welp, there you have it, I kinda threw it together pretty quickly but it's worked ok so far...I haven't been able to find many battles though. Sidenote - where's Quantum at these days?

Wish broke it, last time I checked. Ironically enough, we were talking about ADV when it crashed. Anywayz, I'll definitely throw some ideas around, but atm I have to sort out a couple things 'n stuff, and maybe before I get this chance Wish can toss you some old-timey, 2007 ADV tips or whatever n_n Either way, cool to see ADV, I've honestly been really into it as of late.


For some minor things, 333 Speed on 'Gar allows it to outpace +1 Adamant Ttar, which isn't necessarily prominent, but is something worth dropping a few extra EVs for if you're already going for the + Spe Base 100 mark (though I personally dislike aiming for that, since it's usually unnecessary / unhelpful, but it works for some). As for the Lefties # bit, the idea is that when calculating numbers for residuals, Pokemon rounds up, so that extra 1 HP means one extra HP per turn. For instance, instead of getting 17 HP per now, your Gengar is now getting 18.

Anyway, moving on. This team looks like a pretty solid Spike-stacking team; it looks to fare decently against most playstyles, and I particularly like how the team has the capacity to conceal Magneton and Celebi (both of which you'd rather withhold) without heavily compromising the team's synergy. As I see it, the team focuses ultimately on a Celebi sweep, using Flygon & co. to wear down its checks and counters. That said, I'd like to mention a few different things.

Anywho, that being said, I would consider bumping the Gengar spread back up to 188 Speed; by utilizing Cloyster over an alternative bulky Water-type, DD sweepers (specifically Ttar and Mence, though some Gyara as well) become a little bit more threatening, as a single untimely Rock Slide flinch could really murk you, and it'd be nice to get just a little more assurance against it. Anywho, speaking of minimizing threats, definitely run Will-o-Wisp on 'Gar; your team definitely wants the ability to pick up chip damage on Ttar and CM 'Rachi (both offensive CM and CM+Wish can beat Magneton without being haxxed), and being able to cripple 'Lax and Metagross is nice too. I might also consider Taunt > Giga Drain, though it's sorta iffy; losing out on Swampert isn't too bad, since Cloyster can beat a burned Swampert in the war of attrition (even grab a layer or pressure a spin), but being unable to pick off Ttar as quickly is kinda lame. In return, restricting Forretress and preventing a Rest from 'Lax is nice as well.

Speaking of DD sweepers, I might go for a slightly bulkier Flygon to buffer you out to this; a spread of 208 HP / 112 Atk / 48 Def / 140 Spe would significantly improve your odds imo. Following the trend of pressuring 'mons with chip damage, I'd consider Toxic > TWave on Magneton, since aside from allowing you to pray for hax v.defensive CM 'Rachi, it doesn't do a whole lot (I guess it can sorta annoy non-Rest Raikou, but then why wouldn't pressuring it with Toxic damage not be equally effective?). Grabbing that extra damage v.'pert and some 'Lax (ik I prefer Immunity on mine under most circumstances, but to each their own) is pretty nice for Flygon and Celebi, respectively. Normally I'd be against Salac Magneton, since I would prefer it getting trapped by Duggy under a lot of situations, but considering your team doesn't have something like a DD 'Mence / Gyara, P2, or whatever to follow it up, I suppose that it'd be worth considering.

Anywho, maybe it's just me, but I'm really liking the idea of boom > coverage move on Cloyster. As you mention, HP Electric is fairly weak, and honestly Surf isn't too useful either in my experiences (all it does is hit Houndoom on the switch and deal piss-weak damage to 'Gross, 'Rachi, and Forre :[ ). The extra boom Cloyster offers gives you an extra option to apply pressure to CurseLax and Crocune (both of whom find a reasonable amount of set-up opps), in addition to a little extra push against opposing bulky Waters if you need it. You can even go boom on Forre to limit it to one layer without compromising yours (Taunt / Fire Punch-less 'Gar is Spikes bait, even if it eventually KO's Forre, and going straight to Magneton means risking a spin, layer, or even EQ, and something like follow-up Curselax would be even less fun), so yeah, neat. I'd consider a spread of 248 HP / 112 Atk / 84 Def / 64 SpD (Relaxed), though feel free to tinker as you see fit.

As far as 'Lax is concerned, I'm a bit torn; CurseLax looks like it would function decently well on this team in theory, but losing a strong follow-up to Cloyster would mean opposing CurseLax would be able to Rest up, making the initial play pointless. The most cohesive fix would be Curse+Boom 'Lax, but then that doesn't really do much for the team contextually (the team doesn't need to beat down Ttar / steels that badly, nor do bulky Water-types require that sorta immediate pressuring, etc.), so ehhhhh. I'd probably just stick to CBLax for now, but it's worth tinkering with.

Anyway, last thing I'd suggest would be some slight tinkering on your Celebi set, since it's kinda eh atm. That much Speed never came across as particularly useful to me when you aren't running CM+3 Attacks or something to that effect, and as I mentioned, your follow-ups to Duggy aren't potent enough to submit to it. I'd lean towards 240 HP / 28 Def / 96 SpA / 144 Spe w/Modest and Giga Drain > HP Grass (avoids the OHKO from basically all Duggy variants' HP Bug, Giga Drain prevents sand damage from taking it out afterwards / buffs it out against bulky Waters / non-HP Bug Ttar, etc.), so I guess that's something you could try if you wanted.
Edited by .49, Nov 4 2013, 02:04 AM.
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Alan
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Lax Bro
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Aight, I changed everything 'cept for Cloyster. My team is getting wrecked by CB 'Gross atm so I might just scrap it and go with a more standard bulky water, but Cloyster's utility is tough to part with :[

I'm also having troubles with Jirachi, as if it's behind a Sub I basically have to trade Flygon for like 80%+ damage on it :/ it also can come in on a lot of stuff on my team, it's really rattling to see it beat the magnets 'cuz in 5th Gen OU my 'Zone usually beats 'Raichi :/ Eh, I guess the lack of Spex just sucks.

Btw, does the Flygon spread do anything in particular? (like let me live stuff)

Also, is it worth considering a DryPass team in ADV? Kinda like a Volt-Turn core without the damage, I guess .-. with Spikes support it can still rack up residual damage. There are a bunch of different viable Baton Passers in ADV, so I was thinking of a team like this:

DD Tyranitar (for Sand residual)
Forretress (Spikes + Rapid Spin)
Celebi (Baton Pass)
Zapdos (Baton Pass)
Vaporeon (Baton Pass, although I could just use 'Cune or 'Pert since BP on a bulky water is kinda eh)
Scizor (Baton Pass) or a heavy physical hitter, like 'Mence, 'Lax, or 'Gross
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Tbird Clan Wish
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Quantum Moderator
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Baton Pass ._.
Going cheap, I see ._.
Consider lead jolteon ._. It gets sub almost instantly ._.
Starting with a sub is great for Baton Pass team ._. Or allowing a mixattacker to break walls early on for Ttar support._.
Mixgar ._. A strong attacker to begin with to destroy snorlaxes- it's switching into jolteon ._. Or Bulky waters ._.
Or
CB dugtrio ._. That sub just protects him ._. Rakiou switching into jolteon is gone ._. Or random Jirachi ._.
Pure bulky waters ._.
You already have fortress ._. Don't have a Scizor ._.
You don't have DD Ttar check ._. Pure Bulky waters have trouble with him, since he's supported by the mixusers ._.

3 baton pass Users ._.
2 hard hitters ._.
1 spinner ._.
Quote:
 
Btw, does the Flygon spread do anything in particular? (like let me live stuff)

It lets flygon to live and continue to keep threatening his foe ._.
Earthquake damage can add up - if you continue to threaten the foe ._.
I'm pretty sure Fire Blast is used instead of Dragon Claw ._. Dragon Claw only 2hkos salemence; therefore, they will just switch out for later sweep ._. Fire Blast hits heracross and skarmory hard who resist the combo; you don't want to give heracross anytime to attack, while hazards are annoying for all teams ._.
Edited by Tbird Clan Wish, Nov 5 2013, 02:23 PM.
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.49
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Yeah, I was definitely noticing a distinct 'Gross weakness, since it has a solid chunk of opps to come in, and CB variants can usually toss out a mashes for free and dip (I know I wouldn't stay in after 1 if there's a chance of Magneton) 'n Agiligross can similar throw mashes around 'til it can comfortably clean (basically if it grabs an atk boost and / or wears down flygon a bit). Anywho, to answer the bit about Flygon, and similarly to half-address Wish's DDtar-weak mention, the extra bulk helps it takes hits from DDers a bit better to accommodate Cloyster's minor susceptibility to Rock Slides, avoiding 2HKOs from stuff like Gyara / Mence HP Flying and so forth a bit more consistently (I forget the exact percents, but I know it was something specific :x).

As for Baton Pass, I'm not a huge fan of it myself tbh, but it's decent enough as a splash (something like CM+BP Celebi, SubPass Jolteon, etc.) I guess :> But yeah, it'd change the dynamic of the team a lot, but if you wanted to go for something like that, I'd definitely go for a build like the one Wish is suggesting. Something like Jolteon (Lead) / DDtar / 'Gar (prolly MixGar w/Boom+Giga Drain, you're gonna want go p.offensive with it) / Duggy, with the other two slots probably packing something for hazard control (Forre or Cloyster prolly, since both can throw booms to pressure bulky waters or whatever you can catch really) and maybe something to bait opposing duggy so that you can rk with your own (I like CB Hera, since it hits like a monster and baits duggy to rk w/aerial ace, so that your own duggy can trap 'n ko). Of course this is just theorymon here, so meh.

Also, I kinda just figured DClaw was teched since he packed spin+magneton support, and the ability to hit 'mence+opposing flygon is kinda neat if you can get it, though i could be missing something else.
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