| Welcome to Rabbit Addict. The forums are a place to discuss all things related to rabbits and cavy. From breeding to pet, emergency to genetics questions. Our members are a mix of genetics enthusiasts, breeders, and pet owners looking to share their animals. Hop on in and join the fun! We don't bite. I promise. You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as joining the discussion, customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free. If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features: |
| Harlequin Genetics, thus far | |
|---|---|
| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 26 2014, 05:53 PM (2,342 Views) | |
| HRoberts | Jan 26 2014, 05:53 PM Post #1 |
![]()
POWITH!!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Have discussed this many times, but thought I'd share our findings after test matings to torts, full extensions, otters etc. etc. etc. Right now I will say for sure: A_ejej = harlequin A_eje = harlequin, *typically very brindled, high percentage being predominantly base (orange, fawn, white, etc.) though some will be predominantly colored (black, blue, etc.) however some can be well enough marked to win shows, for sure. See Palomino note below. aaejej = harlequin aaeje = torted harlequin at_eje = poorly marked harlequin - much like the Agoutis with only one harlequin gene, waiting for more litters for more information on tan genes at_ejej = waiting for more litters w/ tan to conclude anything *On the single japanese Agoutis I will say that there seems to be a -huge- difference between Golden Palomino fawn crosses and Red New Zealand crosses, and I am not certain that it isn't wide band. Still unable to determine presence/lack of wide band in harlequins. Most Pal F1 crosses are harlequin marked enough to win the breed in a competitive class of rabbits - have yet to come across a wide band NZ red x harlequin that was not extremely brindled. Seeing the same thing with the tan gene + wideband). Have seen several non-wideband NZ Reds cross with harlequins to create decently marked japanese in F1 generation, thus my suspicion of the wideband gene. I will shout this from the rooftops until everyone stops posting it on the internet - YOU DO NOT NEED AGOUTI TO GET HARLEQUIN. Hopefully someone will find this thread helpful, as I was told so many times by so many more experienced and knowledgeable breeders that you needed Agouti to get decently marked harlequins. No. Best marked animals in the barn are not throwing agouti kits on anything, they are selfs. I have decided to focus on the selfs to a certain extent as I feel they show a richer expression of even rufus (I like my black Japanese) and belly markings tend to be better. Also they let me know right away if they've got a missing japanese gene. Edited by HRoberts, Jan 26 2014, 05:54 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| ZRabbits | Jan 27 2014, 12:41 AM Post #2 |
|
Love My Lions!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Hi HRoberts Thanks for sharing another way to meet the goal of Harlequins. Hopefully others will see this. I've seen some really lovely Harlequin LH's. Wishing you continued success with your Selfs . Would love to see photos of your Harlequins. KAZ |
![]() |
|
| NeuBunny | Jan 27 2014, 01:24 PM Post #3 |
|
Genetics Geek!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
excellent info. can you give a description of what you see in 'torted harlequin'? What consistent characteristics cause you to call a bunny that? look forward to more info from you on the at versions! |
![]() |
|
| reh | Jan 28 2014, 06:10 AM Post #4 |
|
Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
This matches exactly with what is known about the A and E genes biology. See here: http://s4.zetaboards.com/Rabbit_Addict/single/?p=8985581&t=9807714 In eJeJ rabbits the agouti allele doesnt matter. Even in EeJ rabbits the dark japanese pattern can be found - on all non dark parts: in the banding, in agouti and tan pattern. You dont need A in any homozygout eJeJ rabbit (, but people mixing colors want eJe rabbits to be showable and therefore need A to prevent torted ones). |
|
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes www.satinangora.de | |
![]() |
|
| twr | Jan 28 2014, 02:34 PM Post #5 |
|
POWITH!!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
HRoberts, I think it is impressive that you've invested the time and energy in this sort of experiment. Thank you for posting your results so far. I'm relieved that they are in line with the known biology and look forward to your at and possible wideband results. Do you intend to post any more details about the aa results here or on your website? I'm thinking of numbers, exact pairings, representative photos, that sort of thing. |
![]() |
|
| reh | Jan 29 2014, 06:35 AM Post #6 |
|
Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
All sort of images can be posted on rabbitcolors.info (ok, only rabbits so far ;-) The next thing i work on is a side by side view of two groups of colors, then one can compare f.e. aa and A harlekins. |
|
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes www.satinangora.de | |
![]() |
|
| HRoberts | Mar 1 2014, 01:34 AM Post #7 |
![]()
POWITH!!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
It is a slow process, I am so glad I work with a friend on this breed we are able to make progress much quicker. I am sorry I cannot offer any concrete evidence other than the many culls from the nestbox. Perhaps when I am out of school I will have enough daylight hours at home to do more breedings where I can actually grow the kits out to photograph for evidence. As it is now we only keep very few kits to a stage where they don't just look like fluffy babies (we cull the majority of each litter at 4-6wks, leaving only one or two quality kits to grow out any longer than that). I can tell you that the selfs tend to have much deeper color. I am finding I prefer it. Even with less rufus factor they have an overall balance to the rufus they don't look nearly as patchy as an agouti with low rufus factor. Some day I will arrange three or four litters to kindle at the same time with perhaps an Aa sire and some aa dams, so that theoretically I should have at least a few litters with some agouti and self kits, and hopefully across a few numbers I could get enough to show good comparisons of kits the same age same time of year (thus environment is similar) with similar rufus factor yet showing agouti vs. self. When the kits are young I can never tell but by the time they are seniors all the selfs so far just have a much more even spread of color down the belly and sides, even if that color is a super light cream it fades gradually, vs the agoutis fade rather abruptly. Here are a couple of quick photos, feel free to add them to your site. Most are by Hardway Harlequins (Run Afowl Farms is my partner's farm - her farm name is right on the photo so you can tell which ones are hers). Torted harlequin doe, as a junior and then as a senior: http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/hardway_inodorum_1.jpg http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/hardway_inodorum_2.jpg http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/hardway_inodorum_3.jpg You can see how her nose marking has migrated up the bridge of her nose - harlequin markings do not migrate. This doe is torted, though you can see the very light striping on her side. Have found this makes it -very- hard to tell agouti vs self harlequins apart especially juniors. The issue seems to be that those selfs with poor density or quality of color just wash out to almost white anyway, agouti or not, when the harlequin factor is there. Since almost all juniors lack the density and depth of color we see in their senior coats, even confirmed aaejej kits look agouti. The above doe's litter with a tort buck. If this doe was ejej all kits should be harlequinized, and if she was even Aaeje then at least half the kits should be agouti. It was a rather large litter, I think 11 were born, only two harlequin marked. The others are clearly aaee torts. http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/hardway_inodorum_5.jpg ... The smudgy nose is a dead giveaway for the tortequins, though some you can also see tort markings on the ears, even the flanks. ...... aaejej buck http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/hendrix_hype_1.jpg When bred to black havana does (and chocolate) throws solid black kits - zero agouti kits. Is the sire of the doe above and thus the grandsire of the litter above. As you can see he has very light eye circles, jowel, and to the world looks an agouti (with a white toe or two, erk! we had to start with what we could, learned a lot from this buck!). I am sure I have more photos of this guy floating around. Has sired several tortequin kits. .. aaejej doe http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/hardway_helena_4.jpg http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/hardway_helena_5.jpg ................ This is the difference we are finding that wideband makes... wideband: http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/hardway_gauge_1.jpg A_eje http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/hardway_geisha_2.jpg (different rabbit) A_eje not wideband: http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/raf_julianna_2.jpg - Aaeje All the rabbits above are half harlequin, I hope you can see the difference - the widebands have much more overwhelming markings - they are predominantly one color, very unbalanced. We have had several non widebands be clear enough to show and win the breed under many judges, but have yet to have a single confirmed wideband come out with any markings of merit. The doe above (the non wideband) actually has a couple legs, even with her heavy brindling. Her littermate sister had I think four and was much cleaner marked, but did not use her in the breeding program (several reasons, she is a nice doe but just not what we needed). Edited by HRoberts, Mar 1 2014, 01:41 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| HRoberts | Mar 1 2014, 01:46 AM Post #8 |
![]()
POWITH!!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
I will also try to remember to photograph my two last butcher kits before I process them tomorrow - they have been waiting for a free weekend ;). The one is a great example of wideband making an overall very dark rabbit. Any thoughts on why wideband would influence so much the -balance- of markings? I thought it would help but it certainly is not so far. It does not seem to favor red or black - just favors any markings that are predominantly one color or the other (so the idea that its extending the x color intermediate band is not really panning out... unless the harlequin gene somehow interacts to switch which band would be considered the intermediate?? But if that were the case why not do the same thing on any agouti?) I am also waiting on photos of some wideband Ataeje rabbits from another friend also doing some test work
Edited by HRoberts, Mar 1 2014, 01:48 AM.
|
![]() |
|
| ZRabbits | Mar 1 2014, 07:00 AM Post #9 |
|
Love My Lions!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
HRoberts, Would love to be able to help you with some kind of answer on wideband, but still just learning about wideband myself with my Flemish. Will definitely look forward to reading the responses of those with a little bit more in the know. Has been an education for me regarding learning about Harlequins and truly appreciate you taking the time to post this information. Absolutely lovely Harlequins. Did you know that also Harlequins are on the list of rabbits that can be excellent to perform agility? KAZ |
![]() |
|
| twr | Mar 7 2014, 02:55 PM Post #10 |
|
POWITH!!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
From what I think I know about ej I'd be very surprised if any single modifier could cause both extremes of mostly tan as shown and mostly black as described. I'm sure it isn't impossible but I don't think there is a simple way to do it. If you just had the palomino vs nz red difference I'd be saying that the reds probably have lots of small modifiers so the mostly tans and mostly blacks could easily have inherited different modifiers, even from the same parent. Given you see a wideband nz red vs plain nz red difference that argument doesn't work so well. If your numbers in those combinations are small it could still be that the apparent difference is down to chance. If the wideband vs not have other differences in their background it could still be that the widebands also happen to have two other modifiers, one for mostly tan and one for mostly black. Could you clarify whether you are thinking the harlequin parent is carrying wideband or not? ie whether you are thinking the mostly tan and mostly black are Ww or ww? Also, how does a wideband nz red differ visually from a non wideband one? On wideband specifically, I find it rather confusing. Widening the mid band and reducing the undercolour, maybe to the point of eliminating it (especially on the belly and with other unknown modifiers) are a consistent set of effects that makes sense to me. But in several places I've seen claims that wideband also causes tan colour on the belly, which isn't obviously tied to the other effects. That sounds more like a rufous modifier (increasing the intensity of tan everywhere, including the belly, but keeping a contrast between back and belly), or a modifier of the (unknown?) belly lightening mechanism (decreasing the contrast between tan on the back and belly without changing intensity so much). Regarding what might modify the harlequin pattern I'd bet on spotting modifiers and maybe even body shape modifiers over wideband and rufous, but that's essentially guesswork. Have you tried crossing mostly dark to mostly dark or mostly light to mostly light? That might be instructive, although it might take large numbers if you do see colour reversals because at that point, ratios are probably significant. That's all I can think of on this subject for now. I hope it makes sense. EDIT: Several minor clarifications. Edited by twr, Mar 7 2014, 03:06 PM.
|
![]() |
|
| NeuBunny | Mar 8 2014, 08:43 AM Post #11 |
|
Genetics Geek!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
not sure this is what you meant, but it sparked an interesting thought. Do the modifiers that effect pattern in brokens (e.g., spotting versus blanket) also affect the patterns seen in harlequins? Probably a question best answered by someone working with Tri-colors... can you see evidence of which broken pattern (modifiers) is carried in the harlequin kits? |
![]() |
|
| twr | Mar 10 2014, 12:15 PM Post #12 |
|
POWITH!!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Yes that sounds like what I meant. En, du and Vv can all have an effect on ej, so perhaps their modifiers have some effect too. But I have no idea whether this is actually the case. |
![]() |
|
| HRoberts | Mar 23 2014, 01:45 PM Post #13 |
![]()
POWITH!!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
The likelihood that the predominance of one color or chance is pretty slim, these results have been repeated in about n=100++ on the new Zealand reds and red crosses and about 48 pal x Harlequin f1 kits and many more f2 litters well into the hundreds. We are hard pressed to keep purebreds any more because the nz cross f2s are half good markings and the f1 pal crosses are again well enough to show. Meanwhile we vastly improve vigor growth rate and are starting to see what we want in body type improvements. Sadly every time we cross back to purebred to increase percentage Harlequin we pretty much ruin the progress we made with the outcross. I an ready to just breed nothing but my crossbreds together with knowledge of the recessive color genetics. I am happy to win on the table and have a real meal out of the culls. Beautiful kits out of 3/4 Harlequin litters with a mixture of pal and nz to improve type and growth. And I did get pictures of those meat kits will post them when I get home hopefully tomorrow
|
![]() |
|
| ZRabbits | Mar 23 2014, 06:41 PM Post #14 |
|
Love My Lions!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
Sounds like you found a good cross for your Harlequins and their multi-purpose. I've read many threads about how successful crosses are for meat breeders. Regarding meat to bone ratios. Sounds like when you add the purebred it affects that meat to bone ratio? If you are winning on the show table, and get a nutritional meal as well (seems more important to me), I wouldn't worry about trying to go purebred. Really look forward to seeing the Pics of your Harlequins. Congratulations in making your goal. Meat and Color Pattern. KAZ |
![]() |
|
| louierabbit | Apr 16 2014, 04:20 PM Post #15 |
![]()
Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]()
|
What do you think of this rabbit? What kind of genetics does he have? https://scontent-a-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-prn2/t31.0-8/980671_194898020663003_559385362_o.jpg |
|
Visit my website at The Rabbit Louie Keep Hopping! | |
![]() |
|
| 1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous) | |
| Go to Next Page | |
| « Previous Topic · Genetics and Colors · Next Topic » |






![]](http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c319/bunniluver/pip_rgt.png)





1:40 PM Jul 11