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Harlequin Genetics, thus far
Topic Started: Jan 26 2014, 05:53 PM (2,345 Views)
HRoberts
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POWITH!!
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"I am still lost as to what exactly would cause 3/5 ej carriers to show harli markings while the other 2 show NO ej markings..."

So you've test mated all five and gotten japanese marked kits? This is what was confusing me - how do you know all five are carriers, sounds like from the parents you're crossing you could just as easily have only 3 eje kits and the rest EE, Ee or ee.

Since this gene clearly has interactions beyond "A" "C" "D" etc., that is why I recommend multiple matings from the same pair - you will see the range of markings that that pair is able to create. If you saw several kits in the next litter with only one or two dime sized dark markings that otherwise looked like E_ rabbits, that would confirm that they have other genetic or environmental factors working to produce extremely light markings - which would lend credit to the idea that you very well could have 2 ej animals with no ej markings.

"The resulting litter presented proper statistics to further confirm that NONE of them can be atat, aa, ee, or ejej. ALL ej can ONLY be ej carriers and NOT ejej"

It sounds like you already knew the genotype of the two parents, but what makes you say that "NONE" of them could be ejej based on phenotype of kits alone? A lack of markings does not mean they are not ejej. To my knowledge, nobody has test mated and documented multiple generations of lightly marked eje or ejej animals to determine if an ejej animal could be bred with no apparent markings whatsoever. I can tell you that you can have animals that are Eej with zero markings - and it's actually fairly common.

And to the father - AaBbC_DdEe, why torted chestnut? It seems like he would be just chestnut with that genotype ??
Edited by HRoberts, Jun 20 2015, 10:11 AM.
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wildrabbits
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Edited by wildrabbits, Jun 23 2015, 10:31 PM.
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reh
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Quote:
 
Unless however, a different theory is correct and "ej" isn't truly an extension gene but instead is actually a distorted self/dutch gene switch which if heritable like dutch would present the exact same statistics of offspring carrying "ej".

Where had you got this from?
In germany we had an author stating the eJ where a separate, dominant gene J, due to its appearance in EeJ rabbits, but he is wrong (this is all perfectly to explain with the given genetics/physiology).
I had read a lot of the old time geneticists texts and assembled a list of all there described breeding experiments related to eJ.
You can look at it here (german, g=agouti, b=extension): kaninchenwissen.de/bilder/japanerKreuzungen.pdf
This are about 400 kits perfectly matching the expected colors for japanese beeing eJ rather then J.
Beside this there is the paper HRoberts mentioned from Fontanesi, which informs, they hade found a mutation in the E Gene in all 3 harlekin colored breeds out of 31 total breeds they had investigated (and in one albino), 371 animals in total.
Fontanesi, L. et al., 2010. A composite six bp in-frame deletion in the melanocortin 1 receptor (MC1R) gene is associated with the Japanese brindling coat colour in rabbits (Oryctolagus cuniculus). BMC Genetics, 11(1), p.59. Available at: http://www.biomedcentral.com/1471-2156/11/59

The dutch gene influences pigment cell precursor migration/proliferation/survival from some places in the neural crest, so there are some skin parts with no pigment cells. This dutch pattern shows you the pattern in which pigment cells migrate / arrive in skin. It has absolutely nothing to do with the question, which sort of pigment is made.
But its normal that phenomenons caused by pigment cells in two different colors on the same rabbit, which used to travel the same routes may show the same patterns in pigment cell distribution as in dutch.
So when you have only some yellow precursors in a segment (which may be white in dutch) this few cells populate the skin related to this segment and therefore resample dutch. If you have very few starting cells the probability for them to be all the same color is better (and maybe also the probability the cells dont reach the very end of its way - white nail).

(i dont try to follow your pairings, only try to explain cell biology)
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
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HRoberts
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"HRoberts please do the math from crossing AatBbcchd_ddEej and AaBbC_DdEe and tell me the percentages of how many atat, aa, ejej, or ee rabbits you get...then tell me how many atat, aa, ejej, or ee will be any kind of chestnut color..."

You mistake my questioning of your determination of the parental genotypes as ignorance. EE and ee phenotypes CAN be EeJ and eJe, respectively, but with no apparent markings. I would relate this to merle in dogs - you can have a "hidden merle". I do not know, as it is extremely difficult to test mate for this, if an eJeJ animal can have no obvious markings. My suspicion is, as mentioned many times above, that this has far more to do with other genetic and environmental factors than simply the presence or absence of two japanese genes. To prove or disprove this one would need a line of eJeJ animals bred for light markings for multiple generations with large sample sizes. Unfortunately my interests in the breed are as exhibition animals, and to put forth the work to give or take support from this theory is not within the scope of my available time, at least not at this point in my life.



I tried to go back through this thread to see if you had clarified this elsewhere, and came across a few posts I did not respond to.

"I would love to hear any and all theories on her color! One of the new chocolate-cinnamon/tort/harli kits also seems to have a chocolate and blue split alteration on its neck..I haven't heard of this or seen this before :help:"
That's faded color. It can be a result of poor (genetic) color, environment (sun, dry air, mildew even, diet), age of the hair or several other conditions. If she looks like that all the time I would suggest questioning your feed or genetics, most likely for coat quality. She is not a genetic one in a million, this happens fairly often with blues and lilacs.

"I could see your avatar being ata but notice how the black twists at the top? I think that twist may directly be from the tan (at) gene. The dark smudging on the other side of the face looks like it would be from the self (a) gene... My first flemish litter had the face split twist with the (at) gene. The (a) gene expresses smudging on the lower parts of rabbits and always has a distinct horizontal side stripe on every Aa colored rabbit I have ever had without ej."
No. Sorry to tell you this but face splits and other distinction of marking has nothing at all to do with the agouti series.

"From the colors I got in the litter I am fairly certain the parents were AatBbcchdcchdddEej and AaBbC_DdEe."
So this answers my question as to how you determined genotype on the parents- and I'd say to stop there - because the eJ works as e in many cases ("tortequins") do not assume that a torted animal (even your "torted chestnut") is not eJ.



Additionally, you never answered my original question: have you test mated all five the of the "carriers" you mentioned? I am guessing from your posts that the two with "no" markings look like fawns, and that is what has you stumped?
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reh
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An eJe rabbit without black: Posted Image
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
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wildrabbits
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Edited by wildrabbits, Jun 23 2015, 10:29 PM.
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wildrabbits
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Edited by wildrabbits, Jun 23 2015, 10:30 PM.
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wildrabbits
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The mother presented similar expressions of ej in her youth but is obviously a Squirrel color carrying ej with only the slightest hints of ej marks
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wildrabbits
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Honestly HRoberts from your prior comments stating "Ata" I don't think you can even tell the difference between a tort and a harlequin at this point

From your logic all rabbits I have might as well be ejej to you, but let's say for a second you are right and both parents were magically Eej...this means EejXEej which would produce how many eje and ee colors??? REALLY THINK ABOUT THIS BEFORE YOU RESPOND HROBERTS

Two ee phenotypes one appearing fawn or torted otter and one appearing pearl/ermine
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wildrabbits
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Thank you for the pic Reh the genotype to phenotype of that rabbit somewhat confirms my thoughts on how the "ee" "fawn" would be unmarked from a Ccchdeje interaction =)
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wildrabbits
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Reh please resend your recommended link before you mentioned the Fontanesi article. Also the theory on "ej" being a self dutch gene is one of my first theories of why and how "ej" might not be an extension gene
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reh
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http://kaninchenwissen.de/bilder/japanerKreuzungen.pdf (only the http:// was missing)

I dont think the yellow phenotype has anything to do with Ccchd!
Edited by reh, Jun 21 2015, 12:36 PM.
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
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wildrabbits
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HRoberts your report and pics on page 5 of "foxequins" directly reflects the lack of ear lacing/the lightened tort markings of my full colored "ee" phenotype I suspect to be ataCcchdeje. Do you know if that particular rabbit also carried cchd or c?

Also HRoberts the 5th pic you present on page 5 is indeed exactly how Aaee rabbits look, but can you entirely confirm this rabbit's genotype to be excluding cchd, c, and/or ej?

From all the reoccurring patterns it seems Ccchdeje hides ej markings while Cceje and CCeje dont hide the markings, but this may also differ from A-series. As well as only A_ genotypes producing the proper ear lacing, I still suspect cchdceje to be able to hide ej markings as well

Reh can you tell me more about this rabbit's Posted Image known genotype and the both of the parent's known genotypes? That rabbit is how I would picture aaB_CCD_Eej genotype looking.

I also couldn't find a single cchdcej genotype on your color site, as well as noticing all of the atee examples being self/"a" carriers. As far as the link you present goes I can't really follow it...if the lines all involve inbreeding ej lines I don't think it proves certain things
Edited by wildrabbits, Jun 21 2015, 02:03 PM.
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wildrabbits
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Please excuse any and all brashness, I am just trying to locate and identify all possible factors of visible gene combination interactions through certain correlations.
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reh
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Not sure what you mean, but if harlekin would be on another Locus than extension (and - in case of the J from Hochstrasser - would only express fully with e) there had to be other ratios in the F2 litters from eJeJ crossed with somewhat else, especially you would expect some yellow ones, but there ar none (keine gelben...).
I found the work of most of the old geneticist very reliable and if they had done testbreedings to find out if e and J are on the same gene or not, i believe them, even more if i can check there results myself in there papers and they prove it (as well as Fontanesis results).

I still have no idea, how cchd or agouti or wideband or rufus may influence color distribution of eJ for it has to change migration and/or the way the extension gene gets inactivated in yellow, early precursor cells (f.e. by methylation).
Japanese is a mix of steel like cells and cells with no receptor (yellow) which get there color program early and pass it on during proliferation. If you want to change the pattern by whatever, you have to change something during embryonal developement.

What about the idea of color pattern in eJ rabbits beeing accidentally??? Maybe some more yellow in eJe ones, sometimes even fully yellow (like its described already by Castle)?

The only known difference: yellow precursor cells have a slightly survival/proliferation advantage, which you can see in En spotted harlekins, which have a distinctly different pattern compared to non-En ones.

Quote:
 
can you tell me more about this rabbit's Posted Image known genotype
No. If i could, it would be in the entry.
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
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