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| Harlequin Genetics, thus far | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 26 2014, 05:53 PM (2,343 Views) | |
| wildrabbits | Jun 21 2015, 04:12 PM Post #166 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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These retorts all still seem far too widely randomized...has anyone really confirmed anything here other than "harelquin is always harlequin but sometimes doesn't look harlequin"? Has no one made any true new correlations between gene interactions at all? Seems like no one can or will say any heavy coincidences correlate here... |
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| wildrabbits | Jun 21 2015, 05:41 PM Post #167 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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I seems like too HUGE of a coincidence that out of 155 entries on japanese/magpie through the rabbit color site, NONE of them are confirmed cchdceje or cchdcejej? Also why does this rabbit seem to express similarly as I have been stating with rufus/cchd interactions causing a whiter appearance?
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| HRoberts | Jun 22 2015, 12:15 AM Post #168 |
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POWITH!!
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HRoberts your report and pics on page 5 of "foxequins" directly reflects the lack of ear lacing/the lightened tort markings of my full colored "ee" phenotype I suspect to be ataCcchdeje. Do you know if that particular rabbit also carried cchd or c? -> The first doe on that page (and several marked like her) have been confirmed At_CC. -> The second doe on that page could carry cchd from her sire (or cchl, c, etc.). Also HRoberts the 5th pic you present on page 5 is indeed exactly how Aaee rabbits look, but can you entirely confirm this rabbit's genotype to be excluding cchd, c, and/or ej? -> I have continuously told you it is just about impossible to exclude japanese in the genotype from any phenotype, so I think that answers that question. Clearly animals carrying at least one japanese gene can have tort-like shading. Aaee rabbits look like Palominos, in my experience. He is a "fox", a non-extension tan. His sire has thrown japanese kits with -almost- zero markings before (just a few hairs on the bottom of the tail), so it's possible this kit is also a "foxequin" but with no obvious bars. If cchd produced kits with no markings, yet was dominant to cchl, then this kit does NOT carry cchd, as his sire threw marked magpies (ruling out him carrying cchd). The dam to that kit thew nothing but japanese and foxes, making her CC. She came out of a bloodline of truebreeding New Zealand reds crossed with a CC japanese Harlequin buck, so her pedigree would support the CC genotype suggested by her own litters. That would make the kit I posted C_(cchl, ch or c). "but let's say for a second you are right and both parents were magically Eej...this means EejXEej which would produce how many eje and ee colors" What I have been trying to tell you is that eJeJ could very well look exactly as ee, or eJe. So that crossing would produce 25%, statistically, of kits having -a possibility of- appearing ee or eJe. I am not the moron you clearly think I am. What I have been trying to explain is that one should not assume an ee phenotype kit does not carry japanese, or that a japanese phenotype kit does not carry non-extension with or without clear barring or shading. Therefore it would be impossible, without further test mating, to confirm if kit looking like a fawn, a fox, a chinchilla, a steel, etc. etc. etc. did or did not carry japanese. And the photo you posted of the rex cross just looks like very poor rufus to me - we have seen that in japanese kits coming out of magpies, where the rufus has not been selected for, but also coming from japanese where color was okay in the parents. I have seen japanese DQd for white because they were so faded the judges could not tell they were japanese except at the nose (as the animal in that photo is). Yet again, how could we prove that? We would need to take those animals producing this extremely poor color and test mate them, I guess to c animals, to determine if they were cchl or cchd. As I said before, this would be a project for another breeder - I prefer orange and fawn over white, so I do not meddle with magpies unless they can bring in another influence I need. I can tell you that Ccch(l? d? just c?) japanese animals may have extremely light, almost white kits in one litter and then good color in another. I can tell you that the lightest kits I have ever had (we're talking WHITE, as in I thought they were magpies until they were about six weeks old) were out of confirmed CC animals, so I do not think cchl or cchd (or c, though I have never had REWs so I cannot say for certain) would cause this. You would need several cchdcchdeJeJ animals to test your hypothesis. Using only one ancestor carrying cchd will not be useful as he may also be carrying other modifiers causing the apparent absence of markings, and this may or may not show up in all kits, making any conclusions difficult to come by. Perhaps later in life I can work with the c gene more, but so far all I can tell you is what I have observed from crossing in unconfirmed genotype magpies into my confirmed genotype japanese. Also, if chinchillas are genuinely cchd, I will tell you that it does NOT cause an absence of markings in japanese carriers. Period. Several litters bred to American Chinchillas here, as well as reports from litters out of American Chinchillas, chinchilla-colored Flemish, etc. etc. etc. I doubt that Am Chin breeders would want cchl floating around their gene pool, as they already occassionally fight with REWs popping up, and there's no breed worthy of crossing into in a chhl that isn't available in a cchd, c or C variety. |
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| HRoberts | Jun 22 2015, 12:16 AM Post #169 |
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POWITH!!
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Edited by HRoberts, Jun 22 2015, 12:17 AM.
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| wildrabbits | Jun 22 2015, 06:50 PM Post #170 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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Again you are messing up your A-series explanations HRoberts...are the first 4 pics of Aat or ata? Because they look like ata to me..the ones you dub as "fox" actually look like torted fawn Aaee NOT ataee like a fox.... EejXEej still doesnt add up to the statistics of the litter like my already confirmed genotypes of the parents do. Your suggestion results in only 2 looking a possible ejej or magical ee and I had 4.. Also your suggestion means 5 would be marked Eej and I only had one Eej with the other 5 appearing EE... The statistics do however match EejXEe perfectly Also how would you explain CCXCC making the lightest "WHITE" colors in your lines? Again this lacks logic unless En, BEW, and/or dutch was involved...I have seen AaCcchdee torted fawns appear white for the first two days after birth but this is nothing as you describe... A huge thing I would like to point out is how NO aaej/ej rabbit from the rabbit color site seems to hide ej markings no matter what else they carry. This is also very logical because they can only express colors without color bands on the hairs. Notice in this tort rabbit how Ccchd fades all coloring That particular breeder seems to be coming to similar conclusions as I am but at the opposite end of the spectrum in the A-series genes with AaCcchdeje and aaCcchdeje rabbits always expressing ej markings. From this point I am trying to decipher whether Aateje or ataeje tends to throw more dark color and if they show significant differences in ear lacing as I think they do |
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| HRoberts | Jun 22 2015, 09:48 PM Post #171 |
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POWITH!!
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They are tans, they are torts, they are (at least the does) japanese, that makes them a torted tan japanese = "fox" japanese. As a side, since Harlequin breeders call torted japanese "tortequins" I started calling those "foxequins". They are NOT A (dominant wild type agouti). I am not sure where we are miscommunicating here. Look at the tips of their ears and the shading pattern. They throw tans when bred to selfs. I have never seen a "torted agouti", let alone had one come up here. Discovering the tan gene clarified why we were seeing shaded animals with eye circles - we were confused, wondering if the japanese gene would make a self appear agouti-ish, but no it was much simpler - they were tans. As to your litter. I will say one more time, I am not questioning the phenotypes you observed, I am questioning that the japanese gene is not making other genotypes appear so - meaning that test mating with japanese gene is not an effective way to rule out the japanese gene! There is no documentation of a double japanese having mo markings, but as I said before, I think this trait would need to be selectively bred -for- in a Harlequin breeding program, which is the opposite of what we want; or would happen by chance in a crossbred program, in which case everyone would think they were not japanese carriers or only had one etc. etc. etc. leading to a misdiagnosis of parental genotypes. The CCs are japanese with VERY low rufus. It has NOTHING to do with the C series. PERIOD. They have poor rufus which makes them look extremely washed out. At a young age they will look like magpies, as they mature they just look like junk that most of us Harlequin breeders would cull. The animals I referenced were kept for other qualities (rate of gain, hindquarter correctness and bone) and thankfully the poor color has improved with very simple crossings to better colored does. NO aa/ejej animal is on that site with no markings because a) parents producing extremely lightly marked animals, that may also eventually produce such an animal as you were looking for or whose offspring would produce such an animal would be CULLED from a breeding program for japanese markings, and b) because they may be misidentified, see the "as to your litter" explanation above. The same would apply here. If you'd like, I will selectively breed my three animals that throw the super plain kits to selfs and then breed back to parents until I have a bloodline of aaejej animals known to throw no markings and I'll get you a picture. I do think it -could- happen but it would be difficult to obtain animals of this type, because of the available breeding stock limitations and because you'd be working against the natural tendancy of the genetics at the ultimate level (if wild type is mottled, brindled mess, you're looking for 100% clarity - we Harlequin breeders try for 50/50 markings and fail with every litter, so getting to 100/0 might be a tad tough). You just pay me $18.50/hr, buy cages, barn space, cooling requirements and feed for all animals involved in the venture and we'll test the theory out, as I'd love to know. The three animals I have are a sire and his two kits, the kits' dam is by the same sire as the kits' sire, and her dam is also inbred to that same buck. That buck's sibling was very plainly marked, so I would not be surprised if whatever modifying factors for light markings came directly from him. The tort you posted looks like a tort with poor rufus. I do not breed torts (except for test mating japanese, etc.) so perhaps there is something there I'm not seeing. Edited by HRoberts, Jun 22 2015, 09:52 PM.
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| wildrabbits | Jun 23 2015, 01:02 AM Post #172 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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Edited by wildrabbits, Jun 23 2015, 10:27 PM.
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| wildrabbits | Jun 23 2015, 01:20 AM Post #173 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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I had a lop who was AaCcchdee with exact same markings but I couldn't find a pic showing the ear tips well enough. This same lop I am referring to along with the first rabbit pictured were both AaCcchdee and appeared white for the first couple days after birth. I think this white phase also might have had something to due with their thick fur types but couldn't say for sure
Edited by wildrabbits, Jun 23 2015, 01:25 AM.
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| reh | Jun 23 2015, 04:29 AM Post #174 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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The first pic looks like E rather then ee. I have problems following the important points in this thread. I cannot get images, genecodes, relations and your problem (white rather then yellow, no black, ...?) with it together without investing a lot of time (which i dont want to spend). At least the intensity of yellow pigment seems to have no direct relation to japanese black/light color distribution. Ccchd may lead to fewer rufus because of half the tyrosinase beeing somewhat broken and in times of pheomelanin production there is fewer tyrosinase available. Rabbits out of crossings (not selected for even color distribution) tend to have this lighter parts on the sides. I cannot see a way how Agouti may influence japanese color distribution either. Nonselected Aee rabbits have dark ear lacing, dark nose and dark hairtips on back, tail, ... ee is cold sensitive and this is the same for A and aa animals, so where a tort is dark, a Aee is smutty. You can remove most of the smut by reducing the intensity of black and widen the space of the agouti band and so on by selective breeding. But thats not the "natural" appearance of Aee, its the selected for, special appearance of a standard color. Im breeding for red satinangoras (it seems i have managed to get rid of the a allele), but i could not have said by looking on a rabbit if its Aa or AA. There are no other genotypes in rabbitcolors then what people post or what i can get images from, so its in no way complete. HRoberts, i still have not yet added some of your images to rabbitcolor and i would prefer you doing it yourself - you know there genecodes, but i have to look it up for each in this huge thread) |
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www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes www.satinangora.de | |
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| wildrabbits | Jun 23 2015, 11:44 AM Post #175 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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Reh this is the EXACT same rabbit you suggested was "E" Different lighting... |
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| wildrabbits | Jun 23 2015, 11:48 AM Post #176 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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Edited by wildrabbits, Jun 23 2015, 10:25 PM.
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| sidd-says-gimme | Jun 23 2015, 06:22 PM Post #177 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Hey now, we're all friends here. If we don't agree, please just agree to disagree. Debates or disagreeing are absolutely fine, but I'll ask that you please stay respectful and not say mean things. I appreciate all of the information and observations posted here, so let's keep this educational.
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| HRoberts | Jun 23 2015, 07:10 PM Post #178 |
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POWITH!!
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reh I will add them as soon as possible. I need to find old images of original breeding stock too to add them, and a few litter photos as well. |
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| reh | Jun 24 2015, 01:05 PM Post #179 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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If you add the oldest ones first you can add them later to there offspring as parents in the text. In the editor toolbar is a plus rabbit which shows you the 15 last viewed entries for inserting. |
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www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes www.satinangora.de | |
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Debates or disagreeing are absolutely fine, but I'll ask that you please stay respectful and not say mean things.

1:40 PM Jul 11