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Harlequin Genetics, thus far
Topic Started: Jan 26 2014, 05:53 PM (2,354 Views)
HRoberts
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POWITH!!
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I have been so busy with this last term (took on a double major, shoot me now) haven't had any time to check in here.

The lionhead posted to me looks, though I find it -very- hard to tell, like a vienna marked self based japanese. I say self because of the nose - see how it looks slightly sooty? I am starting to see that pattern in the self based harlequins vs. a clearer nose in the agouti ones. That could just be shadows on the photo though - could you respond with what the parents were?

Here are some photos of some of our recent harlequins coming up:

Hardway Leto & Hardway Igraine...
These are littermate sisters - I suspect one to be A_ (the black) and the other aa (the blue. I know the photos aren't perfect for this, but hopefully you can see the smut on the nose of the blue vs. just a slightly darker orange on the nose of the black. Test crossing will show on the black soon (will be bred to a self black within a month, will wait for the litter then post what I find). The smut on the nose is most obvious on the lighter colored rabbits - the smut is somewhat grey (it is -not- just a darker orange, as what you're seeing on the black doe).
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Hardway Briar Rose
This doe I suspect is aaejej. You can see the smut on her nose is more extensive up the bridge of the nose than in the blue doe above. I hope you can also see the grey cast to the smut, it's not just a dark orange. The does above were 6-8 weeks old in the photos, this doe was 12 weeks old in her photo. After seeing the smut move up on aaeje rabbits, this is following the same pattern. The smut on the aaejej is not a dark and doesn't seem to be anywhere but the nose vs aaeje rabbits it is usually nose, some ears, and even a little bit on the sides but is often unnoticeable.
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Also notice her very colored belly, not hurt by a good dose of rufus:
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I have also noticed that the back of the ear is lighter in the agouti harlequins. I have this doe that I have not proven is Aa but after seeing her and her kits maturing I would put money on it that she is.
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Now compare that to a doe that is aaejej:
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See how the back part of the ear on the agouti doe is much lighter? I am seeing that as another pattern in the agoutis.
Edited by HRoberts, Jun 17 2014, 12:12 PM.
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sidd-says-gimme
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Very, very interesting. Gorgeous bunnies, too! Thanks for sharing.
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HRoberts
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I will be test mating all four of the black japanese does in my last post later this summer and should know by mid-late September if they have the genotype that I am suspecting. I am also keeping two littermate does, one of which exhibits the somewhat extreme smut and the other is very clear, I hope to breed them to the same buck this fall and see how that goes. What a wonderfully fun breed to work with each litter is like opening a present the first time you look in the box... it could be a diamond ring or another ill fitting sweater from your aunt Marge. :)
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sidd-says-gimme
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Such an interesting project. Looking forward to seeing if you get diamond rings or ill-fitting sweaters! :giggle:
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HRoberts
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Can someone offer some insight on this marking... have had many kits from the same buck end up with this - front or back leg will start out dark and end up orange right on the foot, or start orange and then end black...

http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbit.php?id=0079

Linking to web page because when I post images I have to resize them first, don't have time this minute and I know I'll forget to make this post if I don't do it now :D

See her right leg - starts out black, ends up orange. I pulled her front feet out as best I could so I could capture this. This doe is very... active... and hard to get photos of.

Looks like all dark nails.
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twr
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My first thought is that this might be a white foot that has filled in with orange. As I understand it, pigment cells that are making orange pigment tend to be more mobile than those making black pigment and can sometimes migrate into any areas that are white due to lack of pigment cells. This applies to dutch, english and "vienna marking", but not to rew, himi or magpie.

On the other hand, a black foot doesn't fit this explanation so well, as the white spot would have to correspond to the orange area on the upper leg.
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HRoberts
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twr
Jul 25 2014, 03:52 PM
My first thought is that this might be a white foot that has filled in with orange. As I understand it, pigment cells that are making orange pigment tend to be more mobile than those making black pigment and can sometimes migrate into any areas that are white due to lack of pigment cells. This applies to dutch, english and "vienna marking", but not to rew, himi or magpie.

On the other hand, a black foot doesn't fit this explanation so well, as the white spot would have to correspond to the orange area on the upper leg.
At first I thought the same - but typically when we see white feet on harlequins it looks like their leg was dipped in white paint - there is a pretty clear line between white and colored. These are crooked, jagged and have a small intermediate zone (just as you would see with the difference between a black bar and orange bar on the body) where there is some brindling from both colors. This doe's is one of the cleaner distinctions, but she's also got cleaner lines all over compared to some of her siblings so that didn't surprise me.

Also, that would not explain the dark toenails on this doe's orange foot, would it? I've always seen white nails go with a white foot, so even if the orange was filling in wouldn't the nails then be bone colored? I will have to check the freezer to see if I have any kits in there from this buck with the same thing but with a black foot and orange leg - I know I've seen several just not sure if I saved any skins yet.
Edited by HRoberts, Jul 28 2014, 01:50 PM.
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NeuBunny
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Could it be a form of brindling? Both orange and black pigment cells intermixed on the foot, at first you see the black more obviously but the orange proliferate faster resulting in the black 'shifting' to orange?
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twr
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HRoberts,
As you say, I would expect an orange foot due to white spotting to have a sharp boundary, so as you are seeing fuzzy boundaries, there may well be another cause.

Regarding toenail colour; until you raised the point, I would have expected the "filling in" effect to apply to toenails too, so they would have the appropriate colour for an orange foot. Now you've made me think about the alternative, I realise white toenails are also plausible, and I have no good reason to expect one over the other.

I have no more ideas about what is going on, but I would be interested to see any pics you have of a black foot on an orange leg or any other clear-cut case where an orange vertical stripe turns black as it gets further down the body (further from the spine).


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HRoberts
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Here are a couple photos of a doe kit that is -very- lightly marked. You had asked once if we ever saw harlequins that were born without markings where the markings came in later. If there ever was such a harlequin this is it - she had "no" markings at all until she was over a week old. I think that the markings were there, but just -so- faint that I couldn't see them at all.

But what I am seeing on her is that I swear her markings are going from her stomach up - not the back down.

Here you can see color on her foot where there is none on that upper leg (second photo is just darkened so you can see it better, I hope)
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She does have a bar of color just behind her shoulder that goes all the way up, but the bar there just in front of her hind flank and the one just in front of that neither one continue up onto her back - yet her belly is actually darker than either of them are on the sides. You can also see that her belly has blue where there is none above on her side. ?? Same thing going on on her hindquarter.
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Is it possible for the pigment to migrate laterally? Especially when the Agouti gene is present? This black buck kit has a black bar running along with his agouti flank stripe. No matter how I tried to pose him or stretch the skin it wasn't going away - there is no black above that stripe of lateral running black, and yet there is black on each side.
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Looking forward to your thoughts on these. I think I am going to keep that blue doe and breed her, she has pretty nice type and I'm curious if she will have kits with a similar bottom-up marking style?
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HRoberts
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Has been some time since I posted on here so thought I'd post some updates.

My summer matings were a flop - I had a self buck (black) to do test mating with but he ended up being sterile, and since I didn't have any other bucks for breeding it went like that for some time. I am now back in the litters, seeing a lot of Agouti kits which I'd like to get out of but that is where the type has been so I am following that.

I have three upcoming litters:
_aejej x Aaejej
_aejej x aaejej >> very excited for this cross!
_aejej x A_ejej
_aejej x _aejej >> this litter will be some time out, not bred yet, doe still has some growing to do.
and one A_ejej x aaejej in the nestbox. I will have to add some photos of this litter for you all with their dam - she is the lightest marked animal I've ever kept and these kits do not reflect that, the sire is also very lightly marked. Two kits in ten were lightly marked, one extremely so (like her). This was her first litter, one was stillborn and I have culled two (one that was rather small, another that had white feet). She is a pretty young doe, didn't want her not feeding these kits especially when there's one kit in the litter with a trait I've been looking for for some time: clean cheeks!

I am surprised that only one kit in the litter had white feet - and two very clear front white feet, the whole front foot - and none of the other kits are showing signs. This is a very close breeding that I had hoped would tell me more about my program, but it has indeed left me with even more questions!

Both sire and dam were from the following mating:
Sire [Sire A [Sire B x Dam B] x Dam A]
x
Dam [Sire A [Sire B x Dam B] x Dam C [Sire C x Dam D]]

Sire is Aaeje
Dam is Aaejej
Sire A is aaejej,
Dam A is AAee,
Dam C is Aaeje.
Dam D is AAejej, linebred to Sire A's pedigree as well.

I had hoped that I could eliminate a few of the confounding variables with this littermate mating on top of an inbred pedigree with known genotypes (from test matings). I will repeat the breeding so I have a few more animals. There is the one buck kit I will probably retain if his type is good.

Have been looking for some tan based animals to start doing more test mating there and see how the tan genes play with japanese, but apparently finding a tan based Mini Rex or Satin is an act of God.

I would rather be doing "pure" breedings of only selfs and only agoutis, but unfortunately my culling has narrowed me down to just a handful of animals right now! My aaejej doe is one of my best I think for her type, her size (she is the right size but still meaty), love her color. I hope to keep a few kits from her to have at least one or two more self carriers.
Edited by HRoberts, Jan 1 2015, 06:55 PM.
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HendricksHearth
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I just saw this thread for the first time and I am so impressed! Thank you so much for sharing this wealth of information you've discovered through all of the test breedings. I feel like I need to go back through and take notes. :)
Lauren @ Hendricks' Hearth
http://www.hendrickshearth.weebly.com
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HRoberts
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HendricksHearth
Dec 6 2014, 02:31 PM
I just saw this thread for the first time and I am so impressed! Thank you so much for sharing this wealth of information you've discovered through all of the test breedings. I feel like I need to go back through and take notes. :)
I don't know about wealth of knowledge so much as "here, see what I did wrong" :D I hope others might add their photos and matings if they can and we can get a better understanding of the wonderful japanese gene. I hope this weekend I can get a photo of my super plain doe next to her very marked litter (there is one in there that is plain like she is, there was a second out of ten, but I culled it early as it was rather small and she's a first time mom - no need to push her).


Oh and I'm picking up a tan based (otter) rex doe this weekend. After quarantine will breed her in to my Agouti buck and then hopefully use an otter buck (have a friend that has one I could possibly use) so I can cross kits from those two litters and see if I can spot the atat kits, then test mate them back to their grandmother. I had hoped to do all of this with a mini rex so they would be smaller and cheaper to feed and keep, but have been looking for some time with no luck. Would like to see the tan gene at work with the japanese gene, even if I have to get rid of the rex fur it will be nice to see those kits side by side with some Agoutis and hopefully more selfs at that point as well.
Edited by HRoberts, Dec 10 2014, 10:31 PM.
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NeuBunny
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Although I don't play with harlequin myself, so my interest is purely academic, I'm really curious to know what you find out working with crossing tan pattern into your japanese. Do continue to keep us updated!
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HRoberts
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Do not select breeding stock for markings alone!

http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/hardway_asterid_1.jpg

This doe looks a bit strange in type - but that's because she's extremely fast growing. She blew past max Jr weight before she reached 3 months old, I bred her rather young (just shy of 4mo) and she did great her first litter. Her condition is really good too I can't believe she is doe just coming off nursing a litter and she looks show room ready (maybe as a Palomino!).

This doe is aaejej. VERY plain, only two very faint stripes on one side.

This is the sire:
http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/hardway_buxales_2.jpg
http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/hardway_buxales_3.jpg
Very good concentration of color but lightly marked as well. The sire and dam are littermates, the dam here is the only plain marked kit in that litter.

In their litter, of ten kits two were very plain - one with only a couple of faint stripes like mom (one kit was still born, I culled this kit, and one more to bring the litter down to 8, another I culled for white feet at about 2wks - that was the only kit with white on feet in the litter)... LOTS of markings. Some not so awesome but some that are really hopeful - loving the clarity on some of these guys' legs and chest splits, the blue buck kit with the split face is staying.
http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/A4A3_4.jpg
http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/A4A3_10.jpg
http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/A4A1_1.jpg
http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/A4A5_2.jpg
http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/A4A5_3.jpg
http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/A4A6_3.jpg
http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbitphotos/A4A7_8.jpg


In each of the sire's other litters so far there are 1-2 kits with faces that are the same color on the cheek as the face split - so one whole side of the head is the same color and is pretty solid. FINALLY.

Sorry for all the links but too many photos will make the thread load super slow :/
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