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Harlequin Genetics, thus far
Topic Started: Jan 26 2014, 05:53 PM (2,352 Views)
wildrabbits
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Thank you for adding your input on my questions NeuBunny. May I ask how much experience you have with breeding harli's? Have you noticed a banded parents with only bands throwing only bar babies???
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HRoberts
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twr
Feb 25 2015, 01:51 PM

I hope you don't mind me revisiting this topic from early in the thread, but I noticed something I think is relevant and interesting.

I was playing with the classical linkage groups, comparing them to the chromosome locations of known genes and trying to use them to predict the approximate locations of unknown genes. When I came to wideband I noticed that the KITL gene was very close to my predicted location. I don't think it is likely that KITL is responsible for wideband itself, but this does suggest that there is a known white-spotting gene that shows a close linkage to wideband (KITL is known to cause white-spotting in mice, and is part of the same signalling pathway as KIT, which is known to cause En spotting in rabbits)....
Thank you so much for this information. That might explain what we are seeing - and may also explain why so many tris have a lack of color balance while the Rhinelanders have pretty much nailed it - perhaps in that breed the KITL may have been bred out?



And to answer other questions... bars and bands can come in the same litter. I keep almost exclusively barred rabbits, have for several generations now, and yet I still end up with lots of banded babies. I do think there are many modifiers at work as I do see a higher % barred than banded, but there is a much greater variation between litters of the same breeding (same sire and dam) than between "groupings" of barred/banded parents.

I'm about ready to throw in the towel on the agouti/torting... I had a kit in this last litter born a TORT, solid, black tort if I ever saw one. At four weeks of age, he has faded so much he is almost orange. From the same breeding, I had several that were/are shaded like tortequins yet express clear agouti markings. None are quiet old enough yet to know what mature coat color will be, but early guess given their juvenile coats says they'll have rings...

A bit depressing to be chasing down even just a few genes, even with a rather closely bred group of animals, and still not be able to come to any real conclusions. Am gearing up for Nationals in 2015 here in Portland (I live in Oregon) and I hope to get some photos and maybe even hair samples from a wider variety of harlequins, I'd like to measure "band" width (actually measured, in micrometers) compared with visual appearance and see if that has a great significance.

Doing all of this while going to school is a bit exhausting as well. I'm not able to raise out nearly as many test babies I just don't have time for the cage cleaning. I may be entering a PhD program in the fall, and if so will remain this busy for at least another three years or so. After that I will hopefully be able to dedicate more time to this project!

In the meantime, I am now battling another battle... Valgus limbs. I haven't been able to find any Harlequins to breed to that don't have this issue, and simply culling the extremes out isn't working, so now am trying to find any animals in the program -without- the issue. From my reading it's a recessive trait, but I have a young doe kit without it while both parents are pretty obvious. I wonder now if she will develop it as she finishes maturing, or if she had it when younger and has simply "grown out" of it.... I hope to dissect a couple of 4wk old kits that are consistently showing signs and see if there is really an issue of bone ossification or if it is an issue of lengthening/shortening of ulna. Oh the things we do for fun...
Edited by HRoberts, Mar 14 2015, 02:09 PM.
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reh
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Still nobody had explained whats the exact meaning of bands is.
Bars = stripes? But brindling is not bands? So please, what are bands vers. bars?????
I know bands only on agouti hair, but not as a pattern of black and yellow hair
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
www.satinangora.de
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wildrabbits
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http://anhrabbitry.weebly.com/harlequins.html

This link will show you exactly what the difference is and also mentions ideal markings as "BARS AND/OR BANDS" strangely enough..Its states that 5-7 alternations is ideal, so genetically how many can there be total? Each of my harli carrier rabbits only have 1 band, which suggests to me that there is more than just 2 harlequin causing genes to get more or less bands and bars...just speculation without any breeding experience with these markings on my part so far though.
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wildrabbits
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I think the best way to study the differences and mixes of bars and bands would have to be with full Agouti pairings...It seems to me that would be the most sure way of knowing how a litter would turn out from a band only mother and a band only father. AA-ejejXAA-ejej...I dont know how much the atat, aa, and wideband genes would effect the bands vs bars so once again just speculation on my part...
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HRoberts
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wildrabbits
Mar 14 2015, 04:52 PM
I think the best way to study the differences and mixes of bars and bands would have to be with full Agouti pairings...It seems to me that would be the most sure way of knowing how a litter would turn out from a band only mother and a band only father. AA-ejejXAA-ejej...I dont know how much the atat, aa, and wideband genes would effect the bands vs bars so once again just speculation on my part...
As far as I can tell, A_/at_/aa all can have just as many bands or bars. I see zero correlation between the two.

And eje can have just as many bands/bars as ejej. That I have seen literally hundreds of times. Some of our best show animals have been straight crossbreds from Palominos, so eje. For still unexplained reasons the Palomino F1 crosses have much cleaner markings than the New Zealand Red crosses. However, I have seen crossbreds from non wideband NZRs that look clean like our F1 Pal crosses did, and so far all my efforts to get wideband into my Harlequins has resulted in terrible color and markings. I think the posting above may help explain that.

And reh bands are continuous all the way around the body - so the same black stripe lines up with itself on the back and belly. With bars, each stripe alternates and so you get a checkerboard appearance.

Many breeders, myself included, prefer the barred animals, and so we kind of lean towards them. Others like the bands. You will have some banded and barred kits in any given litter, though it seems that you can lean one direction or the other by consistently choosing a particular pattern. Neither is preferred in the standard so it is very much a breeder's choice. It is also not uncommon for an animal to have both bands and bars.
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HRoberts
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I should add, eje and ejej are not indicators of how much coloring or patterning you have either, nor is agouti/self. I think the aa rabbits look better, they have a more even color distribution down their sides and tend to not look as faded as the Agoutis even when the same richness of orange/fawn is there.
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HRoberts
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wildrabbits
Mar 14 2015, 03:46 PM
Its states that 5-7 alternations is ideal, so genetically how many can there be total?
Thousands. Animals with extreme brindling are just alternating on each hair shaft.

More noticeably, dozens. I have had nice and clear six part frontals pretty often (meaning let's say left ear dark, top of left face light, bottom of left face dark, left chin light, left chest dark, left leg light). Then you have alternations of bars/bands all the way down the back and alternating hind legs as well. The most I've ever seen that were clear (so not incredibly brindled) was 16 on one animal down the back (so 8 dark bars on each side), plus a four part front and alternating hind legs (total alternations = 21).

Once you get past 4-5-6ish the clarity starts to get harder and harder to keep, so most breeders stick with 4-5 alternations on the body (meaning 2-3 dark bars). The standard calls for a three part frontal, with chest and leg matching, but we as breeders are not unimpressed by four parts.
Edited by HRoberts, Mar 14 2015, 08:20 PM.
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wildrabbits
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How does the stomach look of an AAejej band only rabbit? Does the band carry around the stomach of AAejej rabbits also?? I would think the aaejej only adds to the dark points on the lower side and belly...My understanding is atat and aa both distort the placement of how markings are carried as well with Aa or aa being able to add lateral side streaks...Also if eje can have just as many bands and bars as ejej then how would you really know the difference at all apart from test breeding?

Can you get the 21+ alternations from an eje rabbit? Again it seems like two different sets of genes are responsible for this different patterning and number of alternations to me...For example its almost like a rabbit could carry say "EJEJ" and "ejej" at the same time for such a dramatic number of variations in alternations...

Also why do all of my harli carriers have only one mark across the back??? One seems to be "Eej" another seems to be eje and the third seems to be a Blue eyed marked harlequin dutch..not sure if he is eje or what...
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HRoberts
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wildrabbits
Mar 14 2015, 10:40 PM
How does the stomach look of an AAejej band only rabbit? Does the band carry around the stomach of AAejej rabbits also?? I would think the aaejej only adds to the dark points on the lower side and belly...My understanding is atat and aa both distort the placement of how markings are carried as well with Aa or aa being able to add lateral side streaks...Also if eje can have just as many bands and bars as ejej then how would you really know the difference at all apart from test breeding?

Can you get the 21+ alternations from an eje rabbit? Again it seems like two different sets of genes are responsible for this different patterning and number of alternations to me...For example its almost like a rabbit could carry say "EJEJ" and "ejej" at the same time for such a dramatic number of variations in alternations...

Also why do all of my harli carriers have only one mark across the back??? One seems to be "Eej" another seems to be eje and the third seems to be a Blue eyed marked harlequin dutch..not sure if he is eje or what...
In my experience, the AA or Aa rabbits tend to have lighter stomachs and the bands/bars fade considerably on the stomach. However, there are many more factors at play here. The dark bars may extend all the way across on an A_ animal but at least from what I've seen I have not seen any that carry the orange all the way across. I have a doe that I just (finally) got test bred yesterday I'll know in four weeks for sure if she is A_ or aa. She might prove me wrong.

"then how would you really know the difference at all apart from test breeding"... My point exactly. :)

"Can you get the 21+ alternations from an eje rabbit?"... That 21+ alternating rabbit was eje.

"its almost like a rabbit could carry say "EJEJ" and "ejej" at the same time for such a dramatic number of variations in alternations"... I don't think that is the case, but could certainly be wrong there. I will say that some harlequins, when crossed with EE rabbits, give you Eej rabbits that look clearly barred. They may look like just plain chinchillas/sandys (or whatever your breed calls them) but they will have clearly darker areas and clearly lighter areas - the japanese gene is indeed at work. Then you have harlequin crosses on EE animals where there is zero evidence of any bars. Many many gene interactions at play.

"Also why do all of my harli carriers have only one mark across the back"... Very likely it's at least partly simple luck. You may get tons of markings out of them, of course you might also just get a lot more kits with only one-two bars, or even none.

I would recommend test mating everyone to a tort. This can be somewhat inconclusive but will tell you a lot. If you end up with some purely tort kits (that stay tort) then you probably have _aeje animals. If you end up with all harlequins with no indication of tort and with white ear lacing you've probably got AAejej. "Tortequins" will start out with tort-ish markings and these will migrate (watch them move up the nose - they'll be barely there by the time the animal is 1yr+ but will still look like their face is rather funky shadowed).

AAejej x aaee = Aaeje, could be tortequin, though unlikely
Aaejej x aaee = Aaeje, could be tortequin, though unlikely; aaeje, most likely tortequin
aaejej x aaee = aaeje, most likely tortequin
AAeje x aaee = Aaeje, could be tortequin, though unlikely; Aaee = fawn or red
Aaeje x aaee = Aaeje, could be tortequin, though unlikely; aaeje = most likely tortequin, aaee = tort
aaeje x aaee = aaeje, most likely tortequin; aaee, tort

BE CAREFUL making assumptions on the torts and red/fawns. If you don't see any markings, you should still test mate those animals again. I have had confirmed harlequin kits that have -zero- markings, and I'm not the only one. One kit I had actually marked both parents as e carriers (he was a "red") and only later discovered that his dam was indeed ejej - meaning he was an A_eje animal with -very- low expression of harlequin markings. His dam also had extremely low expression, but littermates were very well marked... Something going on there I'd like to uncover some day!
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wildrabbits
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Hmm do you happen to have any idea how dutch carries along with harlequin when crossing to an Aa-Ee rabbit? I am not really even sure how dutch looks with the different A locus genes.. I will also be crossing an A_Eej with an Aa-Ee and the third will be I think A_eje with A_Ee.
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wildrabbits
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I should also mention I have chosen to breed them this way for the cchd genes for magpies but may see various ata-cchdc-Eej, Aat-Ccchd-eje, aa-Ccchd-Eej ext...Will have a lot of confusing marking and colors with these crosses!..I hope interweaving the colors won't be as hard to choose from in the 2nd and 3rd generations when I tie them together
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NeuBunny
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I have no personal experience raising harlequins -- just a couple of kids in our 4H club who had them, which inspired me to learn more so I could help advise. 99% of what I have learned is from others on this board -- reh, twr and HRoberts. What I picked up from reh really helped me understand the biochemistry of how the E-series genes actually work (and A-series E-series interactions) ... which has been useful in understanding 'smut' on my torts and fawns. Going back through the older strings on harlequin in this forum might be really valuable.
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wildrabbits
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Thank you NeuBunny I will have to look into some of the older strings to see what pops up =)
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HRoberts
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MAJOR revelation today. Have been trying to figure out what the heck is going on with all these "torted Agoutis" that we have been seeing! Really had me discouraged - we have agouti looking animals yet they have smut!

Well, found out today (test mating) they aren't Agouti, they're TAN!!! This whole time I've been working to get some tan lines into the program to play with and then I turn around they've been there the whole time! One of our major brood does has a litter with one self kit and a bunch of little otters (bred to a black Havana)... So exciting! Now I'm going back through old photos and having tons of "AHA" moments.

I will get some photos over the next few days of more of these torted-tan-harlequins :D I'm super excited to finally be getting somewhere! Woohoo!
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