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| Harlequin Genetics, thus far | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 26 2014, 05:53 PM (2,350 Views) | |
| reh | Apr 8 2015, 07:18 AM Post #76 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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http://hardwayharlequins.greyclick.com/rabbit.php?id=0089 dont looks self to me ... |
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www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes www.satinangora.de | |
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| wildrabbits | Apr 8 2015, 01:30 PM Post #77 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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To me that one seems like Aat-eje maybe with wideband?.. |
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| HRoberts | Apr 10 2015, 10:57 AM Post #78 |
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POWITH!!
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I thought she was aaejej. Then knowing her mother threw tan I thought, well, she could be ataejej. We have seen self animals before that had the agouti rings as she does, though she did not have clear agouti rings to her fur when you blow in it, at least when we last checked. I will really need to watch that development wise, perhaps the japanese gene is affecting that more than we knew, and in an age dependent fashion. In that photo she's still very young (I think 10 or 11 weeks?), she was just a monster of an early grower. The fact that she did not have a flank stripe, which is normally crystal clear on an agouti harlequin kit at that age is what made me think self - normally at the stage she was at that flank stripe would be almost white. It will be very difficult to determine if she is ejej or eje for certain. Statistically speaking there is a very slim chance she is eje, but she has never thrown a kit with zero markings. She has thrown kits with extremely light expression - as she has - where they may have only one dot on the bottom of the tail, but she has also thrown beautifully marked show animals. This makes test mating her very difficult with anything except a tort, and even then I wouldn't know for sure (I might just not be finding markings). At this point I don't have any aaee animals for testing with, I've been using the blacks as the japanese markings have been showing through the E as faint bars (or even not-so-faint) on Agouti kits. The tan kits it only shows on the belly, so that eliminates a pretty good size chunk of the canvas to find markings, especially if they are minimal or very faint. In other news, one of her kits in this litter was 8 days old yesterday and right at about half a pound (0.48 I think). Her whole litter is simply obese. These kits were out of a Havana buck. She is nursing nine on this litter. Normally I cull litters back to eight, but she has been an exceptional mother and since I am not looking at this litter for weight data necessarily they won't throw off my statistical analysis on any of my breeding animals. I will keep the weights though - I'm curious to see how her kits stack up to a few other does bred to this same buck. |
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| wildrabbits | Apr 10 2015, 03:59 PM Post #79 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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I cant help but wonder if the very light ej markings are associated with wideband genes. Fawn/chocolate fawn/chocolate tort colors can be super tricky and get even trickier with wideband! When you throw at genes in the mix it only gets even harder! I honestly still cant tell if one of my flemish giants is a chocolate magpie, lilac harli, or some sort of mix between the two because her ej markings are so faint..She might even carry at and Es genes but I just cant tell for sure!!!
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| HRoberts | Apr 11 2015, 10:39 AM Post #80 |
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POWITH!!
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If she carried Es she would be more of a solid color, in theory, though I haven't seen Esej with At_ or a_, only Aa. And no, I've found that the presence or absence has nothing to do with wideband or even the number of japanese genes. Wideband animals - the only thing I've found is that they were extremely brindled and overwhelmingly one color, with only mottled bits of the other color. This doe has a faint but clear marking on her side. Her littermate has much better markings, pretty good clarity, etc. but is only eje. |
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| reh | Apr 11 2015, 01:25 PM Post #81 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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I have a line all descending from two rabbits, a tricolor dalmation rex and a hare colored satin (with wideband, no belly underolor). All japanese/tricolors out of this line have what i would call "normal" japanese color without a lot of clean stripes, but also not nearly unicolor, more like the Rhön rabbits (like a birch stem) or dotted in case of tri. Keep in mind that the ej is a receptor which is probably overactiv (always "on") in dark patches and probably not existent in light ones. I have no idea how the temporarily influence of Agouti signal protein (A) during hair growth ( or a gene widening this time) may influence the distribution of pigment cell precursors of the one or other color during embryonal developement. (Althought there may be a sort of such a function in the not yet characterised wideband gene, i have no idea how it should work from what i know now). Edited by reh, Apr 11 2015, 01:27 PM.
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www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes www.satinangora.de | |
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| twr | Apr 17 2015, 05:44 PM Post #82 |
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POWITH!!
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Phew. At least you're not seeing impossible things then, and I assume from the test breeding results you gave us you've now concluded she is Aatej_ for sure and probably Aatejej. I'm a bit confused by this. It sounds like you using the same name "agouti rings" for two different things (eye circles/lacing etc and the banded ring pattern related to agouti ticking). Interesting. Are you saying that the main reason for the difference between your website's images for RAF Jackson (A_eje with all-over high rufus) and Hardway Buxales (high rufus with a striking lighter pattern) is age? Do you have before and after pics illustrating this change (e.g. a more current pic of Buxales or a younger pic of Jackson)? It would be very interesting if you could find a reliable way to identify A-locus allele combinations on an ejej background because that would suggest a second Asip receptor in melanocytes in addition to Mc1r. But for the same reason I think your chances are slim. In theory I think the expected phenotypes are: aaeje - Black harlequin markings over a tort background. at_eje - Black harlequin markings over a tort-otter background. A_eje - Normal harlequin but can show smut and faint ticking in the orange parts (same as a fawn/orange/red). __ejej - Normal harlequin but should never show smut or faint ticking (or tort). Have you seen the at_eje phenotype yet in your stock or just at_ejej that were only conclusively identified by test breeding? |
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| HRoberts | Apr 24 2015, 01:26 PM Post #83 |
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POWITH!!
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Yes, sorry was writing that last response in a hurry and I did use "rings" to describe two different things - *we have seen animals that were test mated self that have eye circles, flank stripes, etc., especially at that age And I need to check her fur again for rings in the fur - when we last checked she was still a jr I do think the main difference in Jackson vs. Buxales is age. I don't have any younger photos of Jackson, but I can get some older photos of Buxales when I get him back. Right now he is breeding does on the other side of the mountain for a friend that works with me on this project (without her there's no way I could have gotten this far!!!). Have you seen the at_eje phenotype yet in your stock or just at_ejej that were only conclusively identified by test breeding? So far only at_ejej that are confirmed. I am rebreeding a doe this weekend (she missed on her last breeding, but immediately started a pretty heavy molt so wasn't surprised) and that should give me a better idea. The "foxequins" I've posted I suspect to be at_eje, but will have to wait and see! Will have a second test litter in another two or three months to give a second doe's results. I will certainly keep posting updates as they come ![]() aaeje - Black harlequin markings over a tort background. (this is what we've seen) at_eje - Black harlequin markings over a tort-otter background. (this is what I think we're seeing with the "foxequins") A_eje - Normal harlequin but can show smut and faint ticking in the orange parts (same as a fawn/orange/red). (this would be hard to determine at the stage we are at right now - too many other variables to know if smut/ticking is due to the japanese gene, the nonextension, or some other factor. someday...) __ejej - Normal harlequin but should never show smut or faint ticking (or tort). (this I am unsure of - my suspicion is that you could see a smutty harlequin that was close to japanese over a very lightly marked tort background) I started with the A series... if I can get this nailed down we'll go harlequin genetics v2, C series or ww wideband. |
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| reh | Apr 25 2015, 01:45 PM Post #84 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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I hope you will never see an ejej harlekin with any dark hair tips. This would prove the idea of how it works wrong. If japanese is a mix of cells with a steel-like receptor and cells with no receptors at all, there is no way how agouti can switch the nonexisting receptor on or off. The some i have checked for this had no dark hair tips on f.e. nose, ears. |
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www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes www.satinangora.de | |
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| HRoberts | Apr 27 2015, 08:35 AM Post #85 |
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POWITH!!
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Where would be the best places to take hair samples to check this? Anywhere I see smut, or is one region better than others, etc. |
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| reh | Apr 27 2015, 04:12 PM Post #86 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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I thought the most probable places for dark hair tips are ear lacings and nose or tail, so i looked there. |
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www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes www.satinangora.de | |
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| wildrabbits | May 5 2015, 06:29 PM Post #87 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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...
Edited by wildrabbits, Jun 24 2015, 09:51 AM.
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| twr | May 10 2015, 09:04 AM Post #88 |
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POWITH!!
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It has just occurred to me that any differences between A_eje and __ejej may be more visible in magpies (easier to see smut on a white background than an orange one). |
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| HRoberts | May 10 2015, 04:34 PM Post #89 |
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POWITH!!
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Yes but then I'd have to have a barn full of magpies
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| wildrabbits | May 11 2015, 12:15 PM Post #90 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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I will be focusing on breeding for magpie colors, hopefully this may help us all find some hidden answers to the truth through those color genes, even if it is just to a small extent. I may have a couple more ej carriers showing visible signs of ej although the colors do have me a bit baffled..2 seem to be like a chocolate tort/cinnamon or some sort of mix between the two possibly also carrying cchd. One of which has a very distinctive ej coloration split on its neck instead of its face...I still am unsure if the thuringer carriers its own distinctive color gene but if so it may also be present on these two.. |
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