Welcome Guest [Log In] [Register]


Welcome to Rabbit Addict.

The forums are a place to discuss all things related to rabbits and cavy. From breeding to pet, emergency to genetics questions. Our members are a mix of genetics enthusiasts, breeders, and pet owners looking to share their animals.

Hop on in and join the fun!
We don't bite. I promise.



You're currently viewing our forum as a guest. This means you are limited to certain areas of the board and there are some features you can't use. If you join our community, you'll be able to access member-only sections, and use many member-only features such as joining the discussion, customizing your profile, sending personal messages, and voting in polls. Registration is simple, fast, and completely free.

If you're already a member please log in to your account to access all of our features:

Username:   Password:
Add Reply
Harlequin Genetics, thus far
Topic Started: Jan 26 2014, 05:53 PM (2,348 Views)
wildrabbits
Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Reh is your first link basically saying that Aa with e can in theory hide ej markings due to temperature? Also how would co-dominance interact from Cchd with EsE, Esej, ejej, and eje? How would I know best if my largest flemish is bbCchdddEsej or bbCchdddeje?

She looks a lot like this one pictured Posted Image but has more of a lilac/purpled color effect and nearly nothing for fawn or white markings of typical ej patterns, yet she had a distinctive ej face split and slight ej alternating alterations on her back during her youth which is far less noticeable now. Her belly seems quite white
Edited by wildrabbits, May 27 2015, 07:13 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
reh
Member Avatar
Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
The poster i made for the genetics talk on the europe show can be found here: http://www.kaninchenwissen.de/bilder/GenetikTalkPosters.pdf

@HRoberts, what do you mean hadnt been read by the extension gene?
Robinsons book read "EeJ - Agouti-Steel mosaic" and thats exactly how it looks. Surely the difference between steel and agouti is not always easily to spot, especially in case of few, intermingled hairs or brindling. The rex rabbit on rabbitcolors is an extraordinarily distinct patterned japanese-agouti.

Most of what i read by old time scientists is surprisinsgly current (or topically?) and matchs breeding experiments as well as scientific findings.

Quote:
 
Reh is your first link basically saying that Aa with e can in theory hide ej markings due to temperature?
No, it doesnt. I linked it for the explanation of the switch mechanism, not for the temperature sensivity.
There is no codominance between C and E genes as far as i understand this word.
In your link is no rabbit at al.
bbCchdddEsej = nearly black
bbCchdddeje = japanese or sometimes yellow (or white variants of it)
Castle wrote about a yellow eJe rabbit with only 2 ot 3 dark hairs on the tail, so this is long known too.

@neubunny if this is your page you have cavies and may be interested in this:
http://www.van-barnim.de/styled/photos-2/index.html (tortoise like cavies, temperature sensitive, but its not E and not A)
Edited by reh, May 27 2015, 04:59 AM.
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
www.satinangora.de
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
HRoberts
Member Avatar
POWITH!!
[ *  *  * ]
reh
May 27 2015, 04:45 AM

bbCchdddEsej = nearly black
bbCchdddeje = japanese or sometimes yellow (or white variants of it)
Castle wrote about a yellow eJe rabbit with only 2 ot 3 dark hairs on the tail, so this is long known too.
I have not yet seen an aaEsej, something I'd like to try. Steel is down the road as far as experimentation goes. I was accepted into a graduate program and offered the opportunity to switch to a PhD one yet into it, so it will be at least a couple more years before I can experiment more and have more does - enough to play with steel and japanese genes together.

AaEsej = looked like regular gold tipped black steels to me. I did not notice much banding, but it's possible.

And even ejej can be almost all gold with only a few black hairs.




@HRoberts, what do you mean hadnt been read by the extension gene?
Robinsons book read "EeJ - Agouti-Steel mosaic" and thats exactly how it looks. Surely the difference between steel and agouti is not always easily to spot, especially in case of few, intermingled hairs or brindling. The rex rabbit on rabbitcolors is an extraordinarily distinct patterned japanese-agouti.


I will have to repeat a few crosses with this. The camera I had photos of these kits on was stolen at a show, unfortunately, and I culled all thinking not much of it. Some of them would pass simply as agouti, I would not consider them steel, but could be wrong there.
Edited by HRoberts, May 27 2015, 07:30 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
reh
Member Avatar
Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
They are steel in the black parts only and as you said, this could be very few on a rabbit, so yes, they may look like regular agoutis. I have had some of this from my tricolor satinrex project, they look mostly agouti, but all have some black on belly/agouti markings.

Have you an image of this AaEsej rabbit?
One or two times someone told about Ese rabbits looking steel rather then nearly black (or of someone else they heard this from), but i never got an image of such an animal. Maybe ww has influence here too. Sawin (i think) had no proven Esww rabbit so he could not tell how they look.
If eJ works like Es or makes no receptor at all in ESeJ you have either the same situation as in ESES or as in ESe, which would probably look the same.
I have not yet seen this genotype, but from two ESe rabbits i had, one was black and one agouti-black (some hairs with narrow midbands on the sides).
aa ESeJ should be black.
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
www.satinangora.de
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
NeuBunny
Genetics Geek!
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Thanks for link on Californian cavies. I've been following the discussion of these on the world cavy genetics facebook forum. Which reminds me that I should 'ping' the board again for the latest updates. It's apparently a relatively new mutation (new to Europe/North American breeders anyway, first reported in Peru so may have been in the ag populations there for quite some time).

Even though they look somewhat 'himalayan' in pattern (only with dark eyes, himalayan cavies always have pink eyes), this isn't related to the himalayan cavy gene (ch - very similar to the rabbit gene, C-series in both species assumed to operate the same).

The various shades of californians ... white to red ... are produced by the C-alleles -- in cavies C, cd, ck, cr, ch (no albino c in cavies) - in combination with rufus modifiers. The dark-eyed white versions are cr- (chch gives pink eyes, making them true himalayan).

No one seems quite sure yet whether this a completely separate gene or a new E-series allele or an A-series. If I were taking bets, my guess would be E-series, perhaps more similar to the 'e' of rabbits. ('e' in cavies is quite different from 'e' in rabbits).

Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
reh
Member Avatar
Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
It is dominant, in homocygous state they will be much darker.
It occurs together with agouti, tan and yellow and we came to the conclusion its not very probable to be an A or E allele. In dog there is the K series, but maybe its something different.
If you know someone owning such cavies in the US, please tell me, someone wants to investigate this trait and needs samples.
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
www.satinangora.de
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
NeuBunny
Genetics Geek!
[ *  *  *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I think there are a couple of breeders on the west coast working with them...no one here in the midwest that I know of.

Most of the work on the genetics seems to be coming out of Germany ... I went looking after your earlier post and saw pictures of agoutis with the mask as well as a nice photo series showing the development of the mask on a tortoiseshell (mask isn't present at birth, but develops rather like the himalayan points). ... both of which suggest it is a separate gene. Co-dominant with itself (darker mask on homozygous) and epistatic to most gene combinations. Folks seem to be calling it K, but I don't know whether that's intended to reflect the dog K-series or just 'californian' (C-series already being in use for cavies).



Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
wildrabbits
Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
Thanks for pointing out the mix up I made Reh, I corrected the link, here it is again Posted Image

Why do you say bbCchdddEsej would be nearly black? I was trying to find a picture of a lilac steel rabbit but wasn't able to find anything for sure..Wouldn't AatbbCchdddEsej be a lilac agouti harlequin glossed with silver/gold tipping? Why wouldn't AAEsej act as gold/silver tipping over and along a harlequin pattern?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
wildrabbits
Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
...
Edited by wildrabbits, Jun 24 2015, 09:45 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
wildrabbits
Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
I should point out the mother of the one I pictured was A_bbchdcddEej/lilac chinchilla harli carrier for sure which looked much different than she does. The harli on lilac chinchilla only had a white foot and dark ticking where the harli marks go. Her daughter however is far more colorful in person than any lilac chinchilla, lilac chinchilla-ej, or lilac magpie I have seen yet she doesn't have full coloring as a lilac fawn would seem to have...
Edited by wildrabbits, May 27 2015, 10:50 PM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
reh
Member Avatar
Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
i wrote it yesterday:
Quote:
 
If eJ works like Es or makes no receptor at all in ESeJ you have either the same situation as in ESES or as in ESe, which would probably look the same.


Correction - replace black with dark; in case of an lilac rabbit it should be nearly lilac :-)

Please look at the genetics poster for explanation of the receptor.

There is not much color genetics invesigation in germany, Fontanesi is in Italy and regarding the cavies, the guys from the webpage unfortunately are not interested (or at least not so much to take time for sampling).
Edited by reh, May 28 2015, 07:00 AM.
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
www.satinangora.de
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
wildrabbits
Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
...
Edited by wildrabbits, Jun 24 2015, 09:46 AM.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
reh
Member Avatar
Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
[ *  *  *  *  * ]
To differentiate between ej and genetic mosaic you may pluck some hair of dark and light parts, put them on a white sheet and compare the width of agoutiband / color.


strange colors:
http://www.rabbitcolors.info/int/en/entries/all/1.html?s=extra
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
www.satinangora.de
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
HRoberts
Member Avatar
POWITH!!
[ *  *  * ]
"This pic doesn't really show her purple coloration or the chocolate/fawn/gold brindle bits like her coloring is now..its almost a sort of rainbow in the right light..Aeje is my best guess but I don't know how lilac Esej looks either..."


When we have had litters A_Esej kits they looked like steels.
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
wildrabbits
Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
[ *  *  *  *  *  * ]
How would the presence of genetic mosaicism work when crossing colors Reh?? Would a genetic mosaic in theory be a gateway to extra color genes being inheritable??!

Also I had a Lilac Pearl Giant who had blue spotting on her back just as one of the rabbits you pictured Reh Posted Image however, her face was Lilac chinchilla in color over white and she came from a broken colored grandfather. I have read that the broken gene can do this sort of coloration and is basically what started the silver fox from chinchilla/checkered giant crosses if I remember right. How does this effect from the broken gene work?

The lady who was the source of my Flemish bloodlines had A, at, Es, E, and ej in her lines for sure and stated she liked breeding for brindle coloring...HRoberts did you see heavily brindled rabbits from any A_CCEsej lines? Do you remember seeing any A_chd_Esej or A_Cchd_Esej colors?

Also which A-series genes carry the red on the neck again? Could AaEej genotype produce a color split alteration where the red V goes on the neck?
Offline Profile Quote Post Goto Top
 
1 user reading this topic (1 Guest and 0 Anonymous)
Go to Next Page
« Previous Topic · Genetics and Colors · Next Topic »
Add Reply