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Nesting Girls
Topic Started: Jan 28 2014, 11:25 AM (1,362 Views)
sidd-says-gimme
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sidd says stay gold
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Siamese sable?

Sandpiper's babies are from a sable point x sable point breeding, so siamese sable wouldn't be possible (I don't think so at least?). Either way, they were born light and never looked blue, like a baby SS does. The backs are light. It's hard to get sable points with correct color, these guys are ranging from pretty smutty to very smutty. I think about half are seal points, with end up being darker.
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ZRabbits
Love My Lions!
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Though they might not have the "correct" coloring for Sable Point, I do really like the different shadings of the does.

KAZ

eta: Went back and looked at the pics of Sandpiper's does. I really like the 2nd and 3rd does. 2nd is lighter and would like to see how light she gets. But does have have point colors. The 3rd, I just love the darker coloring.

The runty buck looks like he has stripes in his pics.

KAZ
Edited by ZRabbits, Feb 23 2014, 06:21 AM.
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NeuBunny
Genetics Geek!
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ah -- its the smut that's throwing me then. not working with the color myself, I'm only used to seeing the 'correct' coloring, which looks more like a tort in which the orange has been replaced with white and the points go sepia. You are right that two sable points can't give a genetic Siamese sable -- lol unless one of the sable points was actually a very light siamese sable.

can 'smutty sable points' pass for siamese sable on the show table? (show is by phenotype rather than genotype). or are there tells (like a martenized point has a white underside to the tail, which a savvy judge will catch)
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ZRabbits
Love My Lions!
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How are Mom and kits doing?

KAZ
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sidd-says-gimme
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sidd says stay gold
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I was just about to search this topic up! Now I don't have to. :D

Moms and babies are doing well. I think I'll get some new pictures today. I'm really pleased with the personalities on these guys. SO friendly. I just need to make time to get them used to laying on their backs, which I discovered that I haven't been doing enough during "bunny booty" cleaning time.

Neubunny, I don't think that a smutty sable point could pass as a siamese sable. SS is simply too dark overall with a lot more brown to the color. Even the smuttier seal points will have more of a dark grey - black coloration at the smuttier parts and a light off white/creamish (?) undercoat. Though some of mine have a brown cast, it's not nearly enough to ever think that they may be SS rather than SP - especially if it's in person and you take a look at the full body.

Weird thing is that I have never seen a judge comment on color with HLs here. Saw a broken blue point pass, a broken frosty pass as a solid... I guess there's not many colored Hollands to see, though.
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sidd-says-gimme
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sidd says stay gold
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Okay, pictures below.

Sandpiper's:

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1 - sable point doe

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2 - sable point doe

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3 - sable point doe. Piper's darkest baby... with a back pic

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4 - sable point doe... my favorite of the does in this litter

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5 - REW buck

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6 - runty sable point buck that actually looks pretty good :lol:


Stride's:

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REW doe

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Seal point buck... saying seal for sure because he's so dark and has a slight brown cast

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Seal point doe... same reasons as above... the really dark ones have a slightly strange eye color?

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Seal buck


And introducing Toby's babies:

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Sassy one on the end, hehe. 1 tort buck, 2 seal/black does, 1 seal/black buck. All of the dark ones have a brown cast like the for-sure seal buck from Stride, so I'm thinking that they're seals... but I'll have a better look.
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ZRabbits
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What cuties! Really hope you update on the Seals. Never really seen Seals in person. They unfortunately, with my truly untrained eye, look black.

Love that the runt is doing so well. Lovely boy.

REW's, lookin' good! You must be thrilled!


KAZ
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NeuBunny
Genetics Geek!
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Maybe a difference in how the colors are written up in the breed standards? Or that I'm more used to looking at them on wool breeds (where the body color is always so much lighter anyway).

JW and angora both seem to have a LOT of variation in the sables ... (not my photos, stolen from the internet...but I've seen this full range on the tables)

Dark siamese sable
http://bleubutterfly.deviantart.com/art/Siamese-Sable-Jersey-Wooly-260352679

Lighter siamese sable
http://www.hartmanshutches.com/jerseyjuniors.html

and a light sable angora (not sable point)
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Sable points, on the other hand, always have the color limited to just the points - or a little bit in the face...
Dark sable point
http://moonbirabbits.weebly.com/jersey-wooly-does.html


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sidd-says-gimme
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sidd says stay gold
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I definitely think that the wool is a factor. Even on other colors like blacks, blues, and torts, the body will be lighter on the wooly parts of the body. Also, with JW, I believe that shaded is probably more common than in HLs so I would expect that the color would tend to be better. You can see a lighter one and darker one on that page.

Thanks Z! Hoping that none of them get too "fluffy". :nervous:
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sidd-says-gimme
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sidd says stay gold
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More pics! No fuzzies. <3 I was sure some of them were, but I'm super relieved. These are still in order, but now they have names... they are song titles for Sandpiper's, Japanese-related for Stride's.

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Love They Say - sable point doe

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Closer - sable point doe

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Goodbye, Goodbye - sable point doe

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Shock to Your System - sable point doe - growing out

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Glimpse of the eyes. Heartthrob - REW buck - growing out

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I Was a Fool - sable point buck


Now, Stride's:

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Haiku - sable point/seal point doe... anyone know if I should just call her SP? Growing out

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Wasabi - REW doe... I'm actually on the fence about her now, may let her go

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Koi - sable/seal point buck

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Chibi - seal buck... "black" bunny + dying batteries = bad pic
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ZRabbits
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SP is definitely my favorite!

Your REW buck is turning out to be promising. So sorry about the REW doe. I've read that advice many times, if you are "on the fence" with a rabbit, don't keep it.

Thanks for the update. They all are lovely! And glad you didn't get any "fluffies".

KAZ
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sidd-says-gimme
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sidd says stay gold
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Whoops, that part came out wrong. I meant to ask if I should refer to her as a sable point or a seal point. I'm sure that she is genetically seal point but I wonder if I should specify that or just say "sable point", since a lot of people will have no idea what I mean by seal point.

I'm seeing some length of body in these babies but you can't win it all... they're no where near perfect but I think the better ones are going to be better than the parents. I'm hoping very hard that I'll be able to find a good buck that produces what I need this year. Fingers crossed!

I'll be thinking hard about the REW doe, but I do think I'll let her go. I usually wouldn't think twice because even though I do try for certain colors, I will always take type over color. I like her sister a lot better and if I take the REW buck and breed him to Stride, I'll get more REWs. Just worried that something will go wrong with him (always does, sigh).

Anyway, I have a set of 3 litters due in the next 4-5 days. 2 does are definitely pregnant, the other is my "problem doe" Kree who I am not sure about again. Urgh, that doe. Not expecting any shadeds, but I'm hoping my new young buck will produce really nicely. He's a brood buck but his father (and lines) are awesome. Hoping he will produce nicely with the right does. Will make another thread in the next couple of days for those litters. :D
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ZRabbits
Love My Lions!
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Sorry, will leave the "Sable Point" vs "Seal Point" to the experts. Still think either way, lovely doe.

Hey, if you are getting youngsters that are better than the parents, you are doing something. That's what it's all about, right? What's your worry about the REW buck? You said you are worried something will go wrong with him? Why?

I'm so jealous of you Sidd, three more litters due, meaning more babies to fuss over. Fingers crossed that all goes well. Fingers triple crossed (don't know how I'll do that but will) for Kree, your "problem" doe. Hoping she comes through for you. Will look forward, with envy, lol, for your new thread.

KAZ
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NeuBunny
Genetics Geek!
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re sable point versus seal point...

Is the seal point 'showable as' a sable point? If so, I would write the pedigree as - sable point (seal point) or sable point (chlchl). I've seen folks do this for other colors where phenotypically it can pass for a showable color, but they want to warn people (permanently on the pedigree) that genetically it isn't really. Most often, I see it done in the breeds where a self chin (genetic chd-) can pass for showable seal (genetic chlchl). Also occasionally in in breeds where seal isn't showable I see a pedigree with - black (seal).

Definitely sympathize with getting the color you want - but then the type isn't there. Fingers crossed you get even better REWs in the next litter. Fingers crossed for Kree too.
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sidd-says-gimme
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sidd says stay gold
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Z, I'm not really sure what I'm worried about with Heartthrob... I don't usually grow out my own bucks but don't have much luck with it. With my luck, he'll randomly develop malocclusion, a split p, or randomly up and die. :nervous: Oh well, I took a look at him today and he's looking even better. I'll make a decision on the doe in the next few days. She's cute but has a tighter crown than the rest (which I don't need) and is petite (which I also don't need). Sigh... I think I just talked myself into letting her go, hehe. Thanks for the well-wishing! One is Custard, a blue tort doe who will be a first timer. She all ready pulled some fur. The other is Finch, this will be her third litter.

Good idea, Neubunny. Makes a lot of sense. I think she would pass as a sable point but would be considered very smutty. With time, she is lightening up. I'll write her down as a sable point (chlchl). Thank you!

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