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Lots of Questions on Rabbits?; I have tons of questions on rabbit pregnancies
Topic Started: Apr 14 2014, 09:11 PM (182 Views)
louierabbit
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I've got two rabbits that have lived together for a year and a half. I thought they were both does but turns out Sunny is actually a Sonny because he's a buck. I don't know why they haven't already had babies but he is clearly a male and she is clearly not. Anyways, I have an appointment for his neuter and I kept them separated but I decided I DID want to breed them before he is neutered and so I put them back together but she won't let him breed. She doesn't bite him or anything, just growls and he backs off. So I tried to table breed them, and he mounted. She refused to lift and he got sperm everywhere but her vent so I don't think she's pregnant, still. I really want her pregnant before his surgery on May 19th so do you have any advice to get her pregnant?

She was skittish before but now when I open the door she growls at me and puts her ears flat against her head, like she's going to lunge. I know that sometimes when they are pregnant, even only a few days after, does can become very aggressive. So is this maybe a sign that she is pregnant? She hasn't been doing much nesting or digging which I think is normal if she's early into the pregnancy. I have no clue how to palpate so don't even give me that suggestion. I've watched many videos that don't help me at all! :rant:

If you could help me with all this, I'd greatly appreciate it!

Oh! And I have a rabbit cage that is wood on the entire bottom. The walls are completely wire and half the roof comes completely off to allow sunlight into the cage. It's a fantastic, sturdy cage but it's a bit boring.

Here is my cage: https://scontent-b-ord.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ash4/t31.0-8/1146950_218148315004640_310910514_o.jpg

I was thinking about putting a second level in an L shape around the back and half of one side for my rabbits that came out about a foot, maybe a foot and a half. I'd also add a ramp. So for you creative people, how could I maybe do this to make it sturdy like the rest of the cage?

PS. The cage is a fantastic cage, even for cleaning because my rabbits are both litter trained so the urine DOES NOT soak into the wood. I clean the floor daily using a hand broom to scoop any hay that fell out of the litter box and stray poop balls. I also clean the litter boxes weekly, sometimes twice a week.


Check out my rabbit care website: http://louierabbit.webs.com/

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Edited by louierabbit, Apr 14 2014, 09:17 PM.
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ZRabbits
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Hi, Welcome to Rabbit Addict

Sounds like maybe she is pregnant. I know my Luna did the same thing when I first put her with Neville.

You are at the observing point. Thankfully rabbits have a short gestation period and you should know if she has babies in about 31 to 36 days. I would make sure I get a nest box in by 28 days.

Some does will nest early, some does will wait until the last minute, some don't at all. With first timers it's all a "roll of the dice". I got lucky. Luna waited until the last minute but she did make a nest and the babies were in there nice and snug.

Regarding palpating, I was clueless as well. My husband felt the babies about a week before they were born. It does take a bit to acquire the touch and there are some experience breeders that have a tough time doing it as well. So don't fret if you can't.

Just observe. I would keep your buck away from her. Let her have a space of her own as she is a first timer. And in 28 days from the day you put them together, put a nest box in and lots of hay. Keep watching her to see if she starts to nest. The "haystache" will be a big indicator.

Keep us posted on how she does. Hope you get a litter of healthy kits and Mom does well.

KAZ
Edited by ZRabbits, Apr 15 2014, 06:15 AM.
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NeuBunny
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The behaviour may indicate that she is pregnant -- or may just be hormones. Rabbits are induced ovulators -- sometimes the first act of breeding effectively brings the doe into heat. I would try table breeding again now if the first try was less than 2 days ago - she may be more likely to lift now if she isn't pregnant. If more than 2 days ago, you risk a (rare) double pregnancy in which kits are two slightly different ages. That is really rare though -- a lot of people in your situation (on a timeline) would just leave the two together (but watch for signs of aggression).

I think the earliest you can palpate is about 2 weeks. I'm lousy at it too, so I just wait out the 30 days. The other option is to weigh her daily - again, you probably won't notice anything for the first two weeks or more, but near the end of the pregnancy weight gain is usually notable.

You mentioned that they have been living together a year and a half, but not how old the doe is. Does over a year old without ever having a litter often become sterile due to a buildup of internal fat around the ovaries. The older the doe (and the less exercise IMO) the more likely that is. Not all does have that problem - and I hope you are lucky in that regard. However, living together that long without ever having a pregnancy makes me wonder.

If you hit the 32 day mark with no kits (and still can't feel anything definite) re-breed.

Otherwise - Z's advice is right on. Nestbox at day 28 - clean and move to a different place in the cage if she treats it as a litterbox. I've got some that show no signs at all right up until hours before giving birth - including one Jersey wooly we are waiting on (due today) that looks big enough to have a very large litter inside.

Fingers crossed for you!

Edited by NeuBunny, Apr 15 2014, 07:54 AM.
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louierabbit
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ZRabbits
Apr 15 2014, 06:14 AM
Hi, Welcome to Rabbit Addict

Sounds like maybe she is pregnant. I know my Luna did the same thing when I first put her with Neville.

You are at the observing point. Thankfully rabbits have a short gestation period and you should know if she has babies in about 31 to 36 days. I would make sure I get a nest box in by 28 days.

Some does will nest early, some does will wait until the last minute, some don't at all. With first timers it's all a "roll of the dice". I got lucky. Luna waited until the last minute but she did make a nest and the babies were in there nice and snug.

Regarding palpating, I was clueless as well. My husband felt the babies about a week before they were born. It does take a bit to acquire the touch and there are some experience breeders that have a tough time doing it as well. So don't fret if you can't.

Just observe. I would keep your buck away from her. Let her have a space of her own as she is a first timer. And in 28 days from the day you put them together, put a nest box in and lots of hay. Keep watching her to see if she starts to nest. The "haystache" will be a big indicator.

Keep us posted on how she does. Hope you get a litter of healthy kits and Mom does well.

KAZ
I have them separated but they can still see, touch, and smell each other. They have a 5 foot by 4 foot cage and I put another piece of wire netting through the middle to make a divider. I didn't want their bond to break so I wanted to allow them to still be able to see each other and communicate in whatever way rabbits communicate in. Now that I think of it, she might get nervous being able to smell him so close if she does indeed have babies.

On day 28 or so, should I move her into a separate, smaller, cage that I have in my garage? Should I move her now? Will she be fine as long as the buck can't come physically near the nest box?


I really don't want to have to do the bonding process again. But if I have too, I will.



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ZRabbits
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Don't think there will be a problem with her being next to him. My doe was in the same room with my buck and other bunnies, and she did just fine. She had no problems with my buck being next to her. All I did when it was time was slip in the nest box my husband built for her. When her time came, she basically ignored everything around her and just focused on the job at hand. Even after the kits were born, she was a bit nervous, but that was because it was her first time, but by Day 3, she was settling down to do her Mom job.

Again, I would just observe her. As long as she's eating, drinking, pooping, peeing as she always has, she's fine. Just slip a nest box into her crate at 28 days.

The wire that you have between them, just watch they can't get to one another, as rabbit have mated through wire. Plus fights have occurred through wire as well. Not saying your two will do that, just giving you some things to look for. If they do fight, then I would move her to the separate crate in the garage. Just to be safe as hormones do rear their heads and first time does can be a bit more nervous than an experienced one.

Regarding the bonding aspect, I wouldn't worry about the bond right now. The health of my doe would be my No #1 priority. Always can bond afterwards, especially after you neuter/spay. I'm amazed you didn't have a litter before this as they been bonded for a while now.

KAZ
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NeuBunny
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We've had bucks in the cages next to does (and litters) with no problem.

Do double-check the spacing size of the wires on your cage and especially the divider. First-time does are infamous for choosing a spot to nest other than the box you provide - and tiny newborn kits can wiggle through the standard 1 inch mesh. I've heard too many horror stories about people finding chilled kits on the barn floor. A few inches of 'baby saver' mesh (quarter inch holes), window screen or even cloth strips woven through the wire can be a life saver.

If I'm going to move a doe, I try to do it a week before she's due - just to minimize adding stress to a doe too close to delivery. That said, I moved two into the house Monday night (one due yesterday - and no babies yet this morning - and the other tomorrow) when our temperatures plummeted. Had to weigh the stress of moving versus the cold - and decided the cold was the higher risk.
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louierabbit
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I'm amazed that I haven't had babies yet either. I am NOT a breeder, but I don't look down on breeding rabbits either. In fact, I want a litter, but just one. I just found out Sonny was a boy now. The cage wire is tiny. Probably quarter inch and my bunnies are small so I got the smallest I could find. They haven't fought yet, so that's a good sign.

If she has her babies outside of the nest box, should I move them inside it?

I also read an article about how keeping a doe near her bonded mate can actually help her with the stress factor.
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NeuBunny
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I always move them inside the nest box - better to teach a doe that's the safe place to have them. Also prevents them 'wandering' out of the nest and getting chilled (mine are normally in the barn). But with a solid floor and tiny mesh for the sides and if in a relatively warm room, they may be fine in the nest where mama built it.

All about reducing stress. Take your cues from how the doe reacts. If they are truly bonded, she may benefit from keeping him close. But if she's always on the far side of the cage, growls at him, etc - then she wants some space.
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louierabbit
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Ok. You've been very helpful! I have an old wooden box that I keep in Sadie's cage. I was just gonna use that as the nest box because the top opens up and it'd be easier to clean but I was thinking about splinters as it's a very old house that has lived through many many generations of rabbits. I don't know if she's pregnant or not though.

And another question...I saw a post on a very old topic that said something about does making a squeaking noise at bucks when they try to mate with her to warn the buck that she is already pregnant. Sadie does this every single time Sonny tries to mount her (I let them together when I clean the cage), so I was wondering if there was any truth to this.
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ZRabbits
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She's telling him to back off. That's what the squeaking noise is. I wouldn't put them together right now as she may be pregnant or she may be going through a false pregnancy, which though a doe is not pregnant, she goes through the motion of being pregnant.

This is basically a signal for me to not put my buns together. She's warning him but if he doesn't heed her warning, then she may use her teeth.

KAZ
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louierabbit
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He always runs off when she does this. I'm hoping it means she's pregnant and I finished building their run so when I cleaning Sadie's half of the cage, I just open the divider and let her take the run of the entire cage while I clean her half and then switch rabbits and clean Sonny's half so they both have a chance to be in the run. They haven't been physically touching each other for 24 hours, just separated by the wire mesh divider in their cage. She doesn't seem to look stressed out having it there and doesn't growl when Sonny comes up to see her through the divider so does this mean I can leave her in her half of the cage with Sonny in there as well? Or should I still move her to the garage cage.

Oh and how could I figure out an estimate to her due date since if she is pregnant, I have no clue when she got pregnant.
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NeuBunny
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They should be fine next to each other. Just keep an eye out for any sign she doesn't want him there. I'd move him, rather than her, if a problem develops.

If you don't know when they were together, there isn't a good way to estimate due date. I don't think even the folks who are really good at palpating can tell that way very accurately.

Some does start carrying around a mouthful of hay (nesting) a day or so before - which is a pretty good signal, some practice for more than a week (false pregnancies are more likely to carry it around ALL the time I understand), and some just build the nest right before they need it. If you don't know the due date, just be sure to give her a nestbox and plenty of hay before the earliest possible due date (28 days from when they were first together). Worst case, she decides it is a litterbox and you have to clean and move it around (once they use it as a litterbox, they tend to keep doing that unless you move it to a different spot in the cage). I do find that when we give nestboxes 'too early' the does decide to pull all the hay out and build the nest in a different spot -- not sure why, or if it is just a fluke with mine. When that happens, I just scoop the nest into the box and move the box over to her preferred spot.
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louierabbit
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She's got a litter box that she does use so maybe that will fix that problem. She hasn't been carrying around hay so maybe it's not a false pregnancy. I'll take pictures as soon as I get back home on Sunday night of the old wooden box I have in there to see if it would make an okay nest box. I think it would be okay but the opening is shallow and it's so old, I'm afraid it could give splinters to hairless bunnies.
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ZRabbits
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Some put newspaper at the bottom of their nest boxes. Plus the hay and fur will protect the kits.

My husband made a nest box. Luna thought it a bit shallow too, so she used her clean litter box for her nest box and used the nest box for her litter box. My husband was disappointed but was glad she didn't use her litter box as a nest box and litter box.

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NeuBunny
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I wouldn't worry about splinters too much -- babies are surrounded by the nest of fur and hay, so don't really come in contact with the box much. It does need to be deep enough that the babies can't climb out until after their eyes are open. -- at least 3-4 inches on the front (where the mom goes in and out) and higher on the back.

Something like this is what we use ... http://www.wag.com/bird/p/ware-wood-nesting-box-small-423814?site=CA&utm_source=cse&utm_medium=cpc_W&utm_term=FPS-14540&utm_campaign=googleproductsearch&CAWELAID=1418940544

Big enough for the mom to fit and turn around comfortably -- small enough to keep the kits together for warmth and to feel 'safe' to the mom.
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