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| Sadie's Kits Info & Pics | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 8 2014, 05:59 PM (1,010 Views) | |
| louierabbit | May 8 2014, 05:59 PM Post #1 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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I added a new forum post since the other one was getting a bit crowded. I'll re post the other photos so anybody that comes to this post can see those too. I'll also add the ones I just took of a top-view of the small one's ears. Any info on baby kits like Does she need time out of the cage or should I keep her with babies? What age do babies grow fur/open eyes/get out of the nest/eat solids/wean? What should I do/expect for weaning? I can't keep all five babies, I plan to keep at least 1 though. I also do not want them going to a bad home so how much should I charge for the baby? I won't sell them for meat, only for breeding or pets. I don't know if anybody will want them for breeding since they are mixed breeds. It was 80 degrees and humid today. The weather varies from high 60's to high 80's for the rest of the week (until next thursday). Should I take some of mom's fur out of the nest box and just keep it for the colder days? Really, anything you can tell me about keeping mom happy and healthy along with the 5 babies, please do. PICTURES: ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Above is the smallest baby compared to a normal baby. ![]() That is my favorite picture! ![]() Above is the picture of the smallest kit (on the left) compared to another kit. They were only out of there nest for 30 seconds to take the picture. Any ideas on colors would be helpful as well and any tips on ants. What is DE? Where do I put it? Is it safe for the animals? If I put it around the outside of the cage, what do I do about the ones inside the cage. The ants in the nest are black not fire ants. Edited by louierabbit, May 8 2014, 08:42 PM.
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| louierabbit | May 8 2014, 06:02 PM Post #2 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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Oh and I don't know how to resize the pics... |
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Visit my website at The Rabbit Louie Keep Hopping! | |
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| sidd-says-gimme | May 8 2014, 07:46 PM Post #3 |
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sidd says stay gold
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To resize your pictures, you can upload them on a photo editor like PicMonkey. |
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| ZRabbits | May 9 2014, 04:15 AM Post #4 |
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Love My Lions!
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Sadie's kits are precious! As I've only had one litter, not the best expert on what to do, but this is what I did with my first litter. When the kits were about 3 weeks old, I would take them out longer to give Luna a break. I weaned the kits when they were 5 weeks old, leaving Molly there a bit longer than the rest to help dry Luna up. You could start weaning at 8 weeks if you like, keeping the kits with Mom longer. But then I would watch Sadie's reaction to the kits, as some does wean for themselves, meaning your plans go out the window when a doe gets aggressive towards kits wanting them gone and her having her own space again. My kits' eyes opened in about 10 days. Ginnie took a bit longer than the rest and I had to actually help her open her eyes. A nice warm wet cloth over the eye helps loosen whatever keeps the kits eyes closed at birth. Kits started trying solid food when they opened up their eyes and were getting out of the nest box. It was amazing to me that they started so fast, and funny to see them all crowded around the food bowl or next to Luna eating hay. Don't know about what price to put on your kits, as I have all of my first litter here. Didn't sell one. I would take a little fur out if you think they are getting too warm. Here's what I was talking about when I say DE http://www.earthworkshealth.com/?gclid=CNPD4LW9nr4CFRAaOgodAmIA5w Don't know about the kits, but I've dusted my Z-Tribe and my dog Jake with this. Just watch eyes. Regarding color, can see a bit of color on the kits, but would wait until the fur comes in a bit more to actually take a stab at guessing color. Doesn't take them long to get their fur. Congratulations on the litter. Have fun watching them. They grow up FAST! KAZ |
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| NCK | May 9 2014, 07:42 AM Post #5 |
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Somebunny is a awfully chatty
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Lovely kits! Thank you for sharing the pictures. I usually let my Holland does have their normal exercise time after they've had babies - it gives me a chance to do a thorough kit check while the doe is having some fun, not worrying about where I took her babies off to (my does tend to keep a very close eye on me for the first few days, but are never mean.) Now my Cal doe was older when I got her and more timid around people. She's come a long way, but still tends to feel safer in her cage. It just depends on whether your doe is used to having regular play time or not. The kits start to grow fur right away! You should be able to notice some peach fuzz today, and by day 5 or so they will be pretty much fully furred, though its still thin. Here's a 5-day old Holland kit: ![]() Most kits open their eyes around day 12, but some open as early as 10 days and others go a little longer. Personally, I like to help my kits open their eyes with a gentle, warm cloth if they're not open by day 12, but some people wait a couple more days before giving any help. They are extremely mobile, so can really "get" out of the box at any time - usually, though, they start to venture out "on purpose" around the time their eyes are open . I always put them back and try to keep them in, but at two weeks if they're spending more time out of the box than in, you can flip it on its side, or put a clean brick in front to give them a little boost. I like to keep the box in until they're three weeks old, but you can remove it whenever you think is best.They will probably start to eat mom's pellets when they are able to reach them - usually around the time that they venture out of the box. They will also start to nibble on hay as soon as they open their eyes, which I feel is important. Congrats again! |
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| NeuBunny | May 9 2014, 08:50 AM Post #6 |
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Genetics Geek!
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Where to start? DE = diatomaceous earth. It is essentially the shells of diatoms - a microscopic algae that build silica (glass) shells for itself. These tiny shells have a drying effect on invertebrates -- it will kill most soft-bodied ones (like parasitic worms, protozoan parasites, etc) and even insects tend to avoid it. I wouldn't put it directly in the nestbox as it can have a drying effect on delicate baby skin. I know a lot of people who use it directly on adult pets for flea control -- I don't like to do that either as I think it dries their skin too much. But it is totally non-toxic and perfectly safe for mammals. I use it all around my cages and barn floor (and in the house in the floor cracks, couches, etc). If you buy 'food grade' you can actually mix it in your food (for both humans and animals) -- some people swear by it for control of internal parasites. In your situation, I would put it in the cage floor (not in the nest box) but completely around the box - and then I would do the floor outside the cage as well. Fire ants are the worst, but not the only dangerous kind. For example, the little tiny sugar ants excrete formic acid - not dangerous to most of us or to any adult mammal, but potential life-threatening to sensitive individuals (allergen) and to small kits. I'm not always good at picking out peanut versus runt, but your smallest baby looks only a little smaller to me. I don't think it is a peanut. Make sure mama has LOTS of water. Nursing does drink about 3 times as much as they did while pregnant. I also give my nursing does lots of extra hay to eat - keeps them from deciding to eat the hay in the nest. Some people give them alfalfa for the extra calcium - I don't usually. I do up their pellets a little bit. Mother rabbits do not normally stay with their kits. They go to them a few times a day to nurse. Don't be surprised if you never see her in the box -- they have a strong instinct to not let anything (potential predator) know where those kits are hidden and so rarely will nurse with you watching. Just check for nice round bellies and that they are growing. If they are, mama is feeding them. Looks like she made a lovely nest with tons of soft wool. Unless the wool gets wet, you do not need to take it out. Kits will adjust to the temperature they like by crawling deeper into the nest or coming out on top. If you find them all on top and spread out on a warm day, get a fan going. We handle our kits at least daily from birth. It is important to check at least quickly every day to be sure no kits have died (you need to remove dead kits asap). I also check for round bellies, normal growth, etc. How much you can handle them depends on how much your doe trusts you. If she is comfortable with you and with you handling her kits. Even some really nice does get very protective - you don't want to stress them out. Zoe, my angora doe who had a litter last year I actually had to take out of the cage first and put her in a carrier with some treats for a distraction before I looked in the nestbox. I always pet mama bunny around the face/head before and after handling the kits -- that transfers her scent to my hands and my scent to her her. Less likely she will pick up on my scent as something strange. Limit handling to one-two people with whom the doe is familiar at least until the eyes are open. When the kits get to be about 10-14 days old, their eyes will open. At that point, you need to remove any nesting material that is soiled. Ammonia buildup in soiled nest material can cause 'weepy eye' (irritation of the eyes - worst case can cause blindness). They usually start hopping out of the nestbox shortly after that. If the box is tall, they sometimes have trouble getting back in. At that point I either tip the nestbox on it's side or take it out (depending on temperature and whether I think they still need the nest at night). At this point mama generally gets a lot less protective as well. She may appreciate you giving her a break from active babies by taking her or them out for a while. Just take your cues from what she seems comfortable with. It is important to start socializing the babies this young so they see humans as nice rather than scary. Sometime around 2-3 weeks old, the babies will start eating solids -- usually starting with the hay. I try to keep hay available for them 24/7 from this point on. 3 weeks is about the earliest I've noticed them tasting the pellets -- at that point start adding extra to mama's dish (her normal portion, plus some for each kit). I wean somewhere between 6-8 weeks - depending on the litter, size, mama, how they are eating, etc. I usually leave (at least) one kit with mama a little longer -- usually the smallest. This will help her dry off more gradually and help prevent mastitis. It also leaves the option open that if a kit suddenly isn't doing well, you can put it back with mama -- she still has some milk if she's been nursing one. As Z said - some mamas take weaning into their own hands(paws, so to speak) - if mama starts acting aggressive towards kits that try to nurse, it is time to move them out. I never sell kits until they've been off mama and eating well for at least a week AND are at least 8 weeks old. Check prices for rabbit meat in your area. I always make sure to advertise prices well above that based on adult weight. I may sometimes end up selling for less (e.g., to 4H kids getting started) but I never advertise below that. Around here, that's about $15 for a small breed rabbit. Likely your primary 'market' for new homes will be as pets. The only breeders who routinely work with mixed breeds are those breeding for meat. If you have an unusual color or pattern, you occasionally might find a pet breeder who would be interested. A little young yet for color guesses...on newborns I have trouble distinguishing whether pink is going to be white or orange. If I remember correctly, both of your parents are tricolor -- black, orange and white? 1st kit (1st solo picture) -- looks like it will be black and white. Black portions may go to chestnut. 2nd kit (2nd solo picture) -- looks like a solid dilute (blue-based color). can tell ears and belly from the photo -- white (pink) in the ears and belly would indicate an agouti (opal) {or blue otter} 3rd kit (left in the first photo with the pair) - look like a broken dilute (blue and white? or blue and fawn? or even opal and white?) 4th kit (right in the photo with the pair) - white 5th kit - ?? trying to see in the photos of the group which one got missed as an individual? lol - there is always one hiding underneath. The broken (black/white) in your 'favorite picture' looks differently marked than the one you took alone. Are there two broken black/white (one with just it's head peeking out in that photo)? More pictures please in a few days when the fur has grown in a little more! Edited by NeuBunny, May 9 2014, 08:55 AM.
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| louierabbit | May 9 2014, 12:23 PM Post #7 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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I'll post more pictures. There are two with black, one only has a small spot on it's butt, the other has more black spots. I was reading an interesting article about a domestic rabbit nest that got attacked by fire ants. The kits were screaming and mom was thumping in the cage. The owner was a 4H teenager. She got the babies out and rubbed warm rubbing alcohol on their bodies and their bites, avoiding their heads. Then they rinsed them in warm water. She said that when they started growing fur they all had little white spots where they were bit and the rubbing alcohol was placed, like it bleached their fur. All the babies survived. I just thought that was interesting. The smallest baby is going to be orange with a white stripe on her head. Her fur is coming in and looks like it has an orange tint. One of them is definatley all white. Hoping for blue eyes on that one! It's fur is coming in white. The two with black I'm still not sure if they are going to be white with black or orange with black. Then the last one looks greyish or maybe blue like NeuBunny said. I'm excited for their fur to come in. I had it in my head that they would all be orange. Oh and dad is a tricolor, black white & orange, mom is only orange and white. She has no black. I haven't seen any more ants in their cage. I'm going to put a bowl of sugar water outside of their cage to attract them to that instead of the babies. They are so cute. The one that is going to be white is very active. She is constantly moving over her siblings. |
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Visit my website at The Rabbit Louie Keep Hopping! | |
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| louierabbit | May 9 2014, 12:50 PM Post #8 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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Sadie has also mellowed out completely. She hasn't been growling at me. She's even been asking for attention from me when I go in to check on the babies. She is a great mother for her first time. |
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Visit my website at The Rabbit Louie Keep Hopping! | |
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| louierabbit | May 9 2014, 02:03 PM Post #9 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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Here are some more pictures. I couldn't resist! I got a single shot of each one. ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() ![]() Baby one is going to look like dad I think. Like NeuBunny said, it might turn out white and black instead of orange and black though. Baby two is probably going to look like baby one but with less black. Baby three is the smallest baby. I'm thinking she's going to be orange with white and maybe black on her face. She has what looks like a black mark on her face. The rest of her body is starting to grow orange fur and theres a spot on her face that is still pink so I'm guessing it's going to be white fur there. Baby four is growing bluish grey fur right now. Baby five is growing little white peach fuzz. Hoping she's going to have blue eyes but red eyes are ok too. I'll post more pictures around day 5 when they have more fur. |
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Visit my website at The Rabbit Louie Keep Hopping! | |
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| NeuBunny | May 9 2014, 03:34 PM Post #10 |
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Genetics Geek!
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![]() Baby One - Nice patching, Harlequin, Magpie or tricolor. Baby Two - markings not as nice, unless the 'pink' splits into red and white (tricolor) - yeah, also harlequin, magpie or tricolor. Baby Three - I can see the orange coming in on this one. Harlequin or tricolor. Baby Four - I think I see fawn and blue patches - dilute harlequin or dilute tricolor. Baby Five - white. Fingers crossed for blue eyes for you. |
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| sidd-says-gimme | May 9 2014, 03:40 PM Post #11 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Thanks for resizing the pictures, it's a lot easier to view the thread and pics like this. ![]() Your buck is not a tri color. That's a broken harelquin. Though your buck is orange, black and white, he is a vienna-marked harlequin rather than broken. Vienna = the BEW gene. Your doe is a vienna-marked orange. Since we know both of the parents are vienna marked (so carry BEW), if your baby is all white then it likely BEW. First one looks like it's VM harlequin. It's pretty light, so it may be heavily VMed, dilute or I guess magpie could be possible? Second, same as first Third looks harlequin again, possible VM (if it has any white marks) Fourth looks like a cream (dilute orange). Could just be a lighter orange though. Fifth, I can't tell because of the fur on its head. Looks light though. |
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| louierabbit | May 9 2014, 05:13 PM Post #12 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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His head is the same color as the rest of his body (baby 5). Thanks for your help guys! Fur should be coming in soon, so I'll wait until then. Baby three is definatley orange. |
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| ZRabbits | May 10 2014, 04:48 AM Post #13 |
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Love My Lions!
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Love the single shots of the kits! Absolutely lovely babies! Enjoy watching them grow! Plus handle them every day. It helped my girls understand the nice touch of a human. KAZ |
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| NeuBunny | May 10 2014, 06:28 AM Post #14 |
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Genetics Geek!
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VM is certainly possible - with both parents vienna marked, there is very high odds (~50%) that each kit will be as well (25% BEW, 25% VV = not marked) Sidd - broken harlequin is tricolor. Although not the usual gene-combination, a vienna-marked harlequin with enough white still meets the standard for tricolor -- which for most breeds is simply that three colors are present (with 10%-90% white). Except if the eyes happen to go bright blue, which would be a DQ. As these are mixed breed, DQs aren't relevant and terminology isn't set - calling the pattern vienna-marked harlequin (or even vienna-marked tri-color) might be more useful to anyone wanting to breed them - if we end up pretty sure that's the gene combination responsible. Otherwise, tri-color is the more general term. Without knowing the pedigrees, it remains possible that one or both are BOTH vienna-marked AND Broken (Enen Vv). Without pedigrees, it is also possible that recessive C-genes (chd, chl, chd or c) could be hiding in one or both parents. Magpie (aka magpie harlequin) is a genetic harlequin in which the recessive c-genotype (usually chd-) prevents the production of orange color -- leaving the rabbit black and white. I don't see orange on either Baby one or two (it may still come in) - which is why I think they may be magpie. Magpies can also be broken or vienna marked (which add more white). Note if the white baby opens pink eyes (REW = cc) then both parents are Cc and magpie is impossible. |
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| louierabbit | May 10 2014, 10:41 AM Post #15 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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I don't think the white baby is white anymore:( She's starting to get light orange fur on her body and white fur around her neck, so she's probably going to look like her mom or look like an orange dutch rabbit. And yes, both baby one and two are growing little white fur on their bodies, so probably a magpie. The baby pictured as baby three is really gonna look cool when she get's older. You can't see her face in that picture, but her ears and side of her head are black, then the front of her face is orange with a white stripe going down the middle of her ears to her nose. Baby four is falling behind the others. She was normal sized when they were first born, but she's not very active when I touch them like the others are and she's smaller. I can't believe how well Sadie is doing for being a first time mom. She pulled A LOT of fur. I remember the big rabbit I had when I was a kid never pulled fur when she had babies. And, Sadie pulled fur before she was even due (3 days before!). And she loves her babies. Yesterday, I took out the nest box to check on them and when I put it back in, she immediately jumped in it to check on her babies and nursed them. |
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. I always put them back and try to keep them in, but at two weeks if they're spending more time out of the box than in, you can flip it on its side, or put a clean brick in front to give them a little boost. I like to keep the box in until they're three weeks old, but you can remove it whenever you think is best.






1:52 PM Jul 11