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Orange
Topic Started: Jul 16 2014, 01:57 PM (167 Views)
volz83
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Please excuse my lack of knowledge on the color Orange lol but what can you safely breed them to (by safe I mean not get funky or poor color with)? I've read that breeding with tort is "ok", is that generally ok to do? I have a friend whom offered to sell me her orange doe which is out of a squirrel and another orange... I know Chd is second in dominance but not sure if the chinchilla gene is a good idea to mix in with my shaded Hollands..
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NeuBunny
Genetics Geek!
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Orange (A-C-ee) is best bred to other oranges -- or to red/fawn/cream if you have those in hollands.

Orange is genetically an agouti color -- never mix with genetic shaded (chl as in sable, sablepoint, smoke pearl, etc) because that causes shaded agoutis. Tort isn't genetic shaded (aaC-ee combination just looks shaded). Torts and oranges can be crossed, but because the modifiers tend to be different, the result is often that both orange and tort babies from the cross are smutty. I would do that IF the type was there AND I didn't mind the possibility that I might have to breed a second generation (tort kits back to torts and orange kits back to oranges) to get rid of the smut.

Chin gene should be kept with agoutis (tan OK if the breed accepts martens). Mixing with any selfs produces self chins - which fade the eumelanin (black/brown pigment). Self chins tend to look like 'poor blacks' or even fade to seal color. Chin genes with tort can give ermine (A-chd-ee) and pearl (aachd-ee). How sure are you that the orange is carrying chin? If the squirrel sire was chdc (or hiding one of the other recessive C-genes like chl or ch) there's only a 50-50 chance. Which might be worth test breeding.

Some oranges are chocolate-based (bb) rather than black-based (Bb). If there is smut on the ears, that will give away the genetic color. Depending on whether the breed accepts chocolate versions (chocolate agouti, chocolate tort, chocolate chin, etc) that might be OK or might be bad.
Edited by NeuBunny, Jul 17 2014, 07:49 AM.
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volz83
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I really love orange hollands but right now all I have is shaded hollands and my new buck for all my breedings will be a Siamese Sable so looking like not a great idea for now. I think later on I might get into Orange Holland lops, my friend was really nice to offer her to me. I know selling poor color kits or colors not show-able as pets would be easy, Holland lops sell fast here, especially anything that's not tort or black. What I really would like is a solid blue doe for Smoke Pearls later on.

I actually used to own the sire to this orange doe, the squirrel buck but I can't remember what colors he was out of. I know he came from a breeder who breeds any color with anything.. she was the one who told me: "People say you should cross such and such with each other but I do and you can" but I don't think I want to do that. The dam to this orange doe is out of two orange parents which again one of those orange parents is from the same breeder of the squirrel buck (this breeder is the one of the few breeders that work with rarer colors in Hollands so a lot come from her) lol
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redbunny
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I agree with Neubunny. I'd only ever breed orange to orange and if desperate to an agouti. I have had these based on black but due to issues of smut, particularly on the ears, I'd not recommend it. Apparently the chocolate reduces this. However, I will ignore this if the oranges I'm using are clean and then I can start thinking about the depth of orange. It's not actually a colour I like but I do have them when developing my reds if I need to correct issues related to type etc. I do also use them when developing what I call my yellow bunnies, a very pale orange which when resulting from a lutino cross is absolutely fantastic.
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NeuBunny
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lol - I think it is less that chocolate reduces smut, than that chocolate blends into the orange better so the smut is less obvious. If you look close, the smut is still there. (and when my lines throw ermine, which is basically orange in which the yellow/orange pigment production is blocked leaving a white rabbit with just the smut visible, it is really obvious just how much chocolate smut is there - probably worse than the black-based since I'm less likely to select against it). Still, I like the warmer tones and less obvious smut I get with my chocolate oranges.

Share pictures of your yellow bunnies please! I'm fascinated by all the new colors people are getting with the lutino. Do you know which geneotype(s) are giving you yellow?
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volz83
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Yellow sounds pretty! Pictures please! With Hollands, type is hard to develop so color has to be second over type. I don't want poor colored orange in the future but for now I'll see type wise what the orange doe produces.

Can breeding orange to orange create more smutt to? Or is it all based on if you are breeding black or chocolate base?
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NeuBunny
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The AMOUNT of eumelanin tipping (aka 'smut') showing on red/orange/fawn/cream appears to be under separate genetic control (multiple modifier genes). So smutty orange to smutty orange is going to tend to create more smut, clean orange to clean orange will result in less (with the caveat that as with anything even clean to clean can have recessive 'smut genes' pop out if both parents are carriers).

Oranges (A-ee) and torts (aaee) are usually selected for very different modifier sets. For many breeds, crossing oranges and torts, which one might think would be fine, is frowned on and reputed to give very smutty offspring for this reason. lol - which is probably why I have so many really smutty rabbits (I'm actually focused on torts, but have an easier time finding good typed fawns to cross in).

Base color (black, chocolate, blue, lilac) doesn't really effect the amount of tipping (extent over the body and millimeters of tipping) but the color of the tip. Black/orange is high contrast, so our eyes see it more clearly. chocolate/orange is low contrast, so tends to blur together and look like less than it really is. Blue/lilac smut almost completely fades into cream.

Woodstock here is genetically a high-rufus cream (his eyes are actually dark grey with a ruby cast, not brown) ... if you look close, you can see that most of his face and ears is actually lilac ... significant smut ... but at first glance it doesn't show nearly so much as it would if that were all black tipping.

Posted Image

Edited by NeuBunny, Dec 29 2015, 12:49 PM.
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volz83
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gotcha, that really does make a lot of sense. Black would be far easier to see vs chocolate or lilac but either could have just the same amount of degree of smut just some more noticeable than others. For now I am going to see what I get not really color wise but type is my main focus in this pairing. I just don't have the resources (money to buy chocolate carriers) or space to really get down and work with Orange although some day in the future I would love to and if I do, I would go the chocolate/lilac route. With Hollands, especially over here in WA state, crossing Orange to tort is very common and accepted. Color is like 4 points so not many people give a second thought to anything really smutty. Which in some ways is annoying because I have seen a TON of smutty sable points and when you see a clean Sable Point, like I produce, they are SO pretty! The smutt does not do the color justices. But on the other side of the coin.. because color isn't really worked on as far as smut is concerned (due to little show points) it does leave more breedings to cross closely typed animals together. Right now I am focusing on improving type in my sable points and keep them as clean as possible.. but it's hard with limited space and keeping up with type.
Edited by volz83, Jan 3 2016, 11:01 PM.
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NeuBunny
Genetics Geek!
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Can't think of a single breed where type isn't more important. In angoras, smut isn't going to cost me ANY points, and color is only 5 points - otherwise I would be thinking twice about crossing the fawns into my torts. So long as it isn't so bad as to be a DQ (and even those get missed when the show classifications are 'white' and 'colored') color is pretty much irrelevant on angoras. Which personally I think is weird given these are a breed where one USES the wool (but then again, I prefer natural colors of fiber, while most people just dye it). Where I learned not to cross them (and have broken the rules there too) is with the minirex ... still only 15 points for color there, but at least locally judges seem to pay a LOT of attention to color (smut on torts and reds, rings/undercolor on agoutis, etc) - maybe because color is just so much more obvious on that stand-up fur and because each color shows as separate varieties (when you have a dozen reds on the table in head to head competition, the one without smut stands out much more than when you have 15 animals of all different colors). My kids have had quite a few minirexes disqualified that I thought should just be faults and have often lost to animals that (IMO) had better color, but worse type.
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volz83
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She just gave birth tonight to 5 healthy kits! No peanuts. Two are dark like black torts and the other three are light so got my fingers crossed they end being orange!
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NeuBunny
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Pictures!
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volz83
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posted pictures in breeding thread ^_^ Grouping all the litters together because of so many. Also, I posted in the color genetics.. I think I have a tortted otter on my hands......
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