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Color or Type?; beginner breeding
Topic Started: Jan 25 2015, 06:13 PM (159 Views)
Kimmie
New to the Addiction
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Hello fellow rabbit lovers!

I've been posting a lot of questions lately and this post is no different. Hahaha...

For a beginning breeder, do you think it's better to breed for color or type? (Holland Lops)

Thanks so much! :D
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NCK
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Somebunny is a awfully chatty
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Feel free to ask anytime!!

You'll probably hear this phrase a lot: "Type before color." If your plan is to be a show breeder, definitely breed for type. I know that in a breed where black torts make up about 90% of show quality animals, it can be very tempting to go for "color" (which most consider to be anything other than torts, and sometimes blacks). There are some well-established breeders here in the U.S. that are working on bringing excellent type into color - chocolates, BEWs, etc. But those breeders generally start with torts and establish their own line before bringing color into those lines.

If you can find excellent type in a fun color, great - but most likely you'll be looking at something in the tort or self family ;)
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Kimmie
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Thank you so much, NCK! :dance:
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NCK
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Somebunny is a awfully chatty
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Kimmie
Jan 25 2015, 07:48 PM
Thank you so much, NCK! :dance:
No problem!
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sidd-says-gimme
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sidd says stay gold
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"Build your house before you paint it"! :D
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NeuBunny
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Counterpoint ... and well aware this isn't the 'traditional' viewpoint...

Personally, I select a variety or compatible 'color group' in which I want to work right behind selecting a breed. (e.g., I can get great typed REW angoras but I don't like REW, so why would I want to do that? - I love chocolate tort, so even if they aren't perfect, I would rather keep improving my chocolate torts with every generation until they ARE up to standard than go the 'easy route' and write them off just because they aren't as good as the REWs). You aren't going to get as many show wins working with the more difficult colors, but it can be more rewarding (IMO) to see those improvements in your own line - just the same as it may be more rewarding to work with a 'difficult breed'.

Honestly, health/condition first. No matter how good the type or color, I don't want to breed an animal that seems to pick up every bug that comes along (e.g., always the first to get mites, show signs of coccidia, get sore hocks, lose litters, etc).

Then I check for DQs - and that includes color DQs. IMO, really no point in getting perfect type if 90% of the offspring are going to have DQs. This includes unshowable colors, charlies, white spots, mismatched nails as well as the type DQs. Some things (e.g., Charlie, certain unshowable colors) may be OK depending on what you match it with, other things (e.g., snowball selfs) are just going to cause problems forever. I will admit that the type DQs are more likely to haunt you forever than the color ones - and most are more likely to cause health problems.

THEN look at the show standard and see where the points are for your breed. For most breeds, that is type but for some it is other things -- e.g., harlequins the big points are on pattern and angoras wool. That's a reflection not only of what will help you win on the showtable, but what other breeders consider the most important characteristics of your breed. Subtle points of color (e.g., even color, richness of color, degree of shading, intense points, etc) are almost always way at the bottom of the list (incidentally not true for cavies, evenness and distribution of color is worth quite a lot of points for some of the breeds/varieties).
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sidd-says-gimme
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sidd says stay gold
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Great points, Neubunny! I totally agree with breeding the colors you want - however, if the type is that bad off (and even if it's not!) you should be prepared to have some other colors (like torts in Hollands, they are worked on the most so most really nice HL are tort) to help your type in that program. Of course, health and temperament should always be put first - what's the point in making a bunch of sickly/mean rabbits, even if the color or type is there?

Before starting a color program, always know the breed and preferably get the absolute best you can. Getting to know some more experienced local breeders helps a lot for a second/third eye on anything you're looking at purchasing.
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volz83
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I struggled with this when I first stared out breeding Hollands. I personally, would get bored if all I bred was blacks and torts. The tort was the very first color developed in Hollands so that is why you see it so much and why the type is better.. because people worked with that color and type the longest out of any color. Blacks are also very common and have great type. I think it does the breed disservice if everyone stuck with darker colors (you'll hear this term tossed around, refers to tort and blacks mostly). It would also take away from the beauty this breed has to offer in all the many beautiful colors they come in!

My first advice to you is, pick a color group you want to work with, i.e. agouti, shaded etc. I decided on shaded because the very first color I fell in love with is the sable points and tort flows the best with shaded. After which, go to shows, get to know breeders, find a line or two you really like. For me, I LOVE Blue Storm here in the Pacific Northwest for many many reasons. I have some Hollands out of them and from another line. I didn't start out this way though, I just bought what I could afford and started breeding and learning, also a good way to get your feet wet. You will find some lines mix well, others do not. Try several breedings and brother/sister, mother/son, etc and see how it melds. Don't worry if nothing is working and have to try again, I know I did! This hobby takes a long, a long time of breeding and working hard. Now back to color, my advice for shaded only (I have no experience with other colors), is to either purchase or by breeding, to produce torts and blacks that carry sable point etc so they can produce color but still have torts and blacks to fall back on for type. I have my little black buck who carries sable point or rew right now and I love his type, he'll produce some nice shaded babies for me. With whatever your budget is, when buying your base stock or adding, I would go for type. What I mean by this, if you can afford say a really nice typed sable point, then go for it! But do realize that breeders are going to keep their best typed colors for the most part for breeding so you may only get a brood quality or something with say a great head but long in body. If that is your only available purchase option then make sure you pair that Holland with a buck/doe that is strong in it's weak points (i.e. say buck with a nice short body). One thing is you don't want to breed, for example, is a sable point with a great head, but narrow shoulders with another sable point with a great head and narrow shoulders just for color unless you want to but if for show, I would not recommend it.

In the end, do what makes you happy. I love, love color and I refuse to give up on breeding for it. I want to improve type in rare shaded colors and it's a long term commitment I have made for me and for the breed. I keep a line of torts and blacks always going for the type and something I can show (unless I produce a nicely typed colored shaded Holland which would be AWESOME!). I mix my torts/blacks with my colors to keep them (torts, blacks) carrying sable/rew so I can produce color out of them. Also, do know, a hard fact I've seen in person, is some judges just hate color, period, I have no idea why.. you'll rarely see them place them.. just depends. But don't let that discourage you, we owe it to the Hollands to keep them looking beautiful in both type and color. ;)
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Kimmie
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Volz ~ I agree completely. I would get SO bored if all I could breed is Torts. I'm just not that fond of them. Unfortunately, if I want to go for good type, that's all I could get around here (as you pointed out). I'm in love with the shadeds, too, and that's what I was hoping to start in.

So, it wouldn't be a bad thing, then, if I got a Tort with great type and paired him with a Sia Sable doe (with not-great type) just for the color?

I am fortunate enough to have found a beautiful HL with great type, but he's a Tort (which is expected with great type). Here's my post on him in the Show Table forum:

A new bunny for us.

Thanks again for all the input given here. I am reading all the posts over and over to make sure I'm not missing anything. :D
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volz83
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Your welcome! I posted comments on your buck. He is a nice buck to start out with! Most important thing is to have a judge or several breeders look him over and tell you what they might see has stuff to work on (i.e. long shoulders or something) so you know what doe would be good for him and what to watch out for in his kits. :)
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NeuBunny
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Good points Volz! Does seem that whichever color has been worked on the longest (REW for angoras) is going to be where the best type is. And picking a color you like that is at least compatible with that main color is a good strategy. My colored angoras all throw REW because the good colored stock I started with had awesome REWs in their background. And I accept that I will probably have to breed a great REW in at least every couple generations in order to get the pieces I'm missing (for angoras, the issue is less type and more wool density - I can find decent type on colored angoras, but finding one that can rival the density of the top REWs is HARD).

One of the great things about the strategy of starting with a so-so parent in the color you want and crossing to awesome type in the color you don't is that you really do see pretty rapid improvement -- the babies of the color you want are usually SO much better than the parent/grandparent of that wanted color. Downside is the babies in the color you don't want that aren't going to be competitive with the parent of that color (e.g., my colored FA babies are SO much better than the colored pair I started with - but their REW siblings still aren't as good as their REW grandparents) - and so don't sell.
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