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| Smoke Pearl odds | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 8 2015, 11:24 PM (393 Views) | |
| volz83 | May 8 2015, 11:24 PM Post #1 |
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Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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This question is mainly for you Neubunny Both Silvia (sable point) and Hershey (Siamese Sable) carry dilute. So my question is, what is the % roughly or odds of producing a smoke pearl? Silvia has 5+ kits per litter. This last litter she had out of five kits: 2 Siamese sables, 1 seal, 1 smoke pearl and 1 blue point. |
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| wildrabbits | May 9 2015, 01:50 AM Post #2 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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I know my name isn't Neubunny lol but this color calculator http://www.ephiny.net/tim/pedigrees/color_calc.php might help you a bit. It is the best one I have come across so far =) |
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| volz83 | May 9 2015, 02:32 PM Post #3 |
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Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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thanks!! I totally forgot about that calculator lol So here are my odds according to it (It did throw in black and tort but I don't know why, those are not possible.): Siamese Sable and Seal (listed together)- 9.375% Smoke Pearl (listed by itself)- 12.5% Blue and Smoke Pearl (listed together)- 2.34% Sable Point, Siamese Sable and Seal (listed together)- 9.375% According to my Evan's software odds are: Siamese Sable: 18.75% Pearl-Sable (what color is that?): 18.75% Rew: 16.67% Sable Point: 9.38% Seal: 9.38% Pearl-Blue (r.g) (what color is that?): 6.25% Himi: 3.13% Blue Point: 3.13% (yes low odds lol, can't show blue points) Siamese-blue (I assume this is smoke pearl?): 3.13% Sm. Pearl/Siamese Smoke Pearl (assume smoke pearl lol). 2.08% I wonder how accurate both are out of curiosity, wide range of % between the two. My other question, just wondering, why it has higher odds for smoke pearl? I would think Siamese Sable would have the highest odds because of the extension "E" gene from sire and the dominate "D" none dilute gene from both parents. Felt Silvia today and I can't believe how huge she is, her skin is so tight and so firm! This is seriously going to be my biggest litter to date, I have never felt a doe THIS huge before! She did have a smoke pearl in her last litter (confirmed that because kit was blue/cream with darker points, no shading on flanks and by the time it died, it had already started to get that grizzled white fur already). Edited by volz83, May 9 2015, 03:04 PM.
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| NeuBunny | May 9 2015, 04:05 PM Post #4 |
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Genetics Geek!
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Silvia (sable point carrying dilute … assuming no chocolate genes, and not a genetic seal point so carrying either pointed or REW) aaBBchl[ch/c]Ddee Hershey (sable, assuming no chocolate genes, and not a genetic seal point so carrying either pointed or REW) aaBBchl[ch/c]DdE? … ?Do you know whether he carries sable point? Kits aa = all self-based BB = no chocolate D[D/d] = 75% black/sable dd = 25% blue/smoke chlchl = 25% seal (including blue seal) chl[ch/c] = 50% shaded (sable and smoke) chch, chc or cc = 25% pointed or REW, depending on the more dominant of the carried genes Combining the above… D-chlchl = (75% x 25%) = 18% seal ddchlchl = (25% x 25%) = 6% blue seal D-chl- = (75% x 50% = 38% sable ddchl- = (25% x 50%) = 12% smoke pearl IF both carry REW 25% REW IF either one carries pointed … D-ch- = (75% x 25%) = 18% black pointed ddch- = (25% x 25%) = 6% blue pointed IF Hershey do NOT carry non-extension (sable point), then the above is sufficient (All kits are Ee). IF Hersey DOES carry non-extension, then the above splits 50/50 Ee and ee 9% seal and 9% seal point 3% blue seal, 3% blue seal point 19% sable, 19% sable point 6% smoke pearl, 6% smoke pearl point 25% REW OR with ee the pointed get lighter/incomplete points. sable pearl (aaB-chl-D-ee) … this is basically the same thing as a sable point, but the name used in French and English angoras. blue pearl in angoras is aaB-chd-ddee (which isn't possible here) … aaB-chl-D-ee is still called smoke pearl (for show, not distinguished from aaB-chl-ddE-) Personally, I don't like the calculators … they do include all the very low odd stuff (Evans wouldn't ignore chocolate as a possible here, just give it very low odds, Evans also seems to always include the possibility that seals are really self chins) but they don't handle the OR statements well at all (the reason you are getting a strange percentage on REW is that it is using infer from farther back in the pedigree about how likely it is that you have ch versus c) and (I do sympathize with this one) aren't able to handle the different color names/lumping for multiple breeds well at all. lol - but then, I've been calculating the odds for gene combinations longhand for almost 30 years. |
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| volz83 | May 9 2015, 10:17 PM Post #5 |
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Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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wow thanks so much! I assume Hershey is "Ee" as he has produced sable point with a tort doe (who also carried sable point). What color is smoke pearl point? Love learning all about this!!
Edited by volz83, May 9 2015, 10:21 PM.
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| twr | May 10 2015, 08:43 AM Post #6 |
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POWITH!!
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I also get a per-kit probability of 6% with the above genotypes (including Hershey Ee) when calculating by hand, but that colour calculator gives 9%. It seems to be lumping blue seal in with smoke pearl for some reason. In a 5-kit litter, 6% per kit translates to a 28% probability that one or more kits is smoke pearl. 9% per kit translates to 39% chance of one or more smoke pearl in a 5-kit litter. To have a 90% chance of getting smoke pearl would take 36 kits at 6% per kit and 24 kits at 9% per kit. So if you're dead set on another smoke pearl it could take a while if you are unlucky. |
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| volz83 | May 10 2015, 11:11 AM Post #7 |
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Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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Thanks twr! I've got my fingers crossed, she gave me one last litter and I'm pretty sure she has more than five this litter so hopefully! She is due next Thursday so will for sure post pictures! I'm almost wondering if she'll pop earlier than day 31. Her belly is so round, I need to get a picture of it lol poor thing is eating like mad, I free feed my hollands and decided to up her feed a tad. |
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| wildrabbits | May 11 2015, 01:10 PM Post #8 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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The more exact you are for the genotypes on the color calculator the more precise it will be. If you leave any gaps in the calculator it will account for all possible color odds. I think "smoke pearl point" could be A_cchdchee or A_cchlchee but I don't state this with a full certainty. Maybe another member can bring in some more light on this question for you Volz |
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| volz83 | May 12 2015, 12:53 AM Post #9 |
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Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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Thanks! |
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| NeuBunny | May 12 2015, 07:47 AM Post #10 |
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Genetics Geek!
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smoke pearl point (at least as I use the term) is just the dilute version of sable point ... aaB-chl-ddee. Depending on the breed, sometimes they are just called smoke pearls (with the standard written to allow the lighter coloring you get by adding non-extension). lol - or in angoras all aaee with either chd or chl are just called pearls ... so includes sable points, smoke pearl points, blue points, seal points, etc |
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| volz83 | May 12 2015, 10:03 AM Post #11 |
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ok gotcha! We call them blue point. People are working to try to get it an approved color for Holland lops. I hope they do, very pretty color and they allowed smoke pearl so... lol |
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| wildrabbits | May 12 2015, 09:18 PM Post #12 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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Pearls are amazingly beautiful colors! I think pearls and magpies should be approved for most non color specific breeds but I don't think either are really accepted among many breeds.. Does anyone else happen to know more about this? |
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| NeuBunny | May 13 2015, 08:04 AM Post #13 |
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Genetics Geek!
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Magpie and harlequin are beautiful, but considered 'difficult' to get the patching right. As a breed in their own right, harlequins assign 50 points to color/pattern -- which means harlequin breeders really focus on getting the pattern right (and even then have lots of culls). Keep in mind most breeds assign only 5-10 points to color/pattern. ARBA has made it clear they won't accept a COD for harlequin or magpie unless it matches the patching requirements of the harlequin breed (face split, alternation, etc). Starting from scratch in a breed where those genes and modifiers aren't present, one would be looking at decades of work to get something that breeds true enough for a second presentation (second presentation has to be parents and offspring, both show quality and meeting the full COD standard). Interestingly, far more breeds accept tri-colors. Since the En gene used to add white to get tri-color almost always messes up patching anyway (most tricolors have a lot of brindling or small spots of color rather than the large patches and alternation) you can write a tri-color COD that doesn't call for the difficult to breed for patching. Shaded are also always hard to get past 2nd presentation. Shaded expresses as the heterozygous genotype (chlch or chlc). This mean it will never breed true. shaded x shaded always gives 25% seal, 50% shaded and 25% of the recessive (pointed or REW). Shaded also tends to be variable in expression and temperature sensitive. Nail color is also difficult on shaded (some colored nails and some white nails is always a show DQ). All of which means you need to produce a LOT more kits in order to get a show quality family group (parents and offspring) for presentation. Angoras took an interesting way around the shaded gene to get pearls passed. Peal angoras are accepted as a single group in black, blue, chocolate, lilac, and sable ... all but the sable can be chd- or chlchl or chl-. chd does breed true and so do the 'seal' versions. |
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| volz83 | May 13 2015, 01:30 PM Post #14 |
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Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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Tri colors are an accepted color for Hollands. It is really beautiful but not many breeders breed for them simply because the type is usually not there so you have to do a lot of breedings and many generations to get show quality ones. I have yet to see one on the show table however, my very first Holland lop was a lilac tri colored name Lilly! I LOVED her! She was so cute! The lady who bred them got her stalk from a well known tri-color breeder up in Canada. Unfortunately, I was just starting out in Hollands and had no clue that my loved Lilly was very much a pet quality even though the breeder said "she could be shown" yeah she could but that was a joke. No hard feelings on that breeder, you live and you learn along the way. Lilly ended up getting what I'm pretty sure was a fur block, she stopped eating/drinking/pooping and then couldn't sit up anymore.. hubby had to put her down, I was heart broken but if you fall off the horse, get back on! I always will have a special place in my heart for Lilly! I might see if I still have a picture of her around.. |
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| wildrabbits | May 14 2015, 09:13 PM Post #15 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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Lilly sounds like she was gorgeous! I would love to see pics of her if you have them! I have been considering breeding for magpie/broken magpie lops since I got my first French lop stud.Please help me understand a bit about the term "tri color" here. Does tri color refer to both broken magpie and broken harlis or do broken magpies have a different term entirely? |
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I would love to see pics of her if you have them! I have been considering breeding for magpie/broken magpie lops since I got my first French lop stud.
1:40 PM Jul 11