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| shaded and himi netherlands | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 18 2015, 07:40 AM (126 Views) | |
| whoalookitsme | May 18 2015, 07:40 AM Post #1 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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Hello everyone! I have a question from someone on rabbitsonline. I know you guys are the best at genes and genetics so I know that you can better answer and I will add your replies to the thread. I want to post the thread because I will just quote bits and pieces so you can get the just of it. http://www.rabbitsonline.net/showthread.php?p=1064016#post1064016 "I have been breeding with Siamese sable/smoke lines for a few years and recently introduced a Himalayan buck to the equation. The sable/smoke lines are from show breeding stock and always produced consistent result as regards colour. Unfortunately I don't know an awful lot a bout the pedigree of the Himalayan buck but bred to my two light smoke does the offspring was either Himalayan or light smoke. Sometimes the smokes would be a bit strangely coloured with a lot of white under their belly. As it turns out one of these smokes went to a person who bred him to a sable doe that stems from the "pure" lines and the outcome is this: http://www.donedeal.ie/smallfuries-f...05016?offset=1 The seller claims one of the offspring is black otter and I admit there is a resemblance but is that genetically possible? I can't figure out what else it could be though. Could someone enlighten me as I would love to know what the background of my Himalayan buck is." I basically replied that the babies are a himi marten and a sable marten. At first I said he must carry marten assuming it is recessive but I later found out that himi cannot carry it. "Does that mean my himi buck carries at ? I had always suspected that as some of the smokes he produced had quite a lot of white under the chin and belly. But I also did get correctly coloured smokes from him and decent enough himis (I thought) I must go through old photos and see what the actual colouring was. " She wonders why she got correctly colored smokes and light smoke pearl martens which I now realized that the dad of the babies from the website is a smoke pearl marten. I also realized from research that the himi buck must be a himi marten. Is this correct? Also she has a couple more questions And this is where it becomes over my head. "Is there a reason why the pattern presents so weekly (no eye circles etc...) and why can a self himi buck not carry the tan pattern. Would that not work as any other recessive gene? Or is there something like "partial diminance? I am totally unfamiliar with "at" and it has cropped up by chance. I would have to have a look for Winter pictures of my buck as at the moment he looks a but bleached from exposure to the sun. Will post them as soon as I find them. I always assumed in the past that the marten pattern was somehow carried recessively and therefore the offspring looked merely "martenized" rather than like a proper marten. I assumed it was a bit like the "c" gene influencing the shade of the colour. Do you know what I mean?" |
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Raising Show Quality Tans, Polish, and Himalayans in Houston, Texas Owen's bunnies | |
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| NeuBunny | May 18 2015, 08:46 AM Post #2 |
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Genetics Geek!
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Simplest point first ...
It does work exactly as a simple dominant/recessive gene. at is is dominant over a ... so self cannot carry tan pattern, but tan pattern can carry self (ata = tan).
This probably comes down to modifier genes. Within tan pattern rabbits, some have stronger/bolder eyes circles, others have weaker ones. Some have nice clear bellies with the marks extending up the sides, others have 'muddy' bellies with stray dark color mingled in, the band narrowed, etc. The degree of expression of the primary tan gene (at) is affected by many secondary genes (modifiers). Many of these are NOT simple dominant/recessive but multigenic, multillelic and co-dominant. I would not expect a tan pattern rabbit bred to a self to produce well-marked kits -- because the self parent most likely is not contributing the necessary modifier genes.
smoke x sable = aaB-chl-ddE- x aaB-chl-D-E- black otter kit would = at-B-C-D-E- No, this cannot give black otter because neither parent has a dominant C gene to give to the offspring AND neither parent has a dominant at gene to give the offspring. By the pictures, the offspring is definitely tan pattern ... The pictured sire, described as smoke, has light lacing inside the ears. Despite the lack of eye circles, I think he must be a smoke pearl marten. That makes him the source of the at gene. The cross STILL won't give black otter. I think the tan pattern kit that was identified as black otter is either sable marten (which is what it really looks like to me in the photo) or a seal marten (if actually blacker than it looks). Ears, eye circles, cheeks and chest look very white to me -- on an otter they would be cream to orange. The brownish 'sepia' tone of the sable creeping into the triangle can easily make one think otter instead of marten. sable marten = at-B-chl-D-E- seal marten = at-B-chlchlD-E- The baby DOES have way better markings than the dad, especially eye circles. Not what one would predict, but luck of the draw in a line not selected for markings, mom is likely carrying the correct modifiers even through she is sable (she could easily have martens 4 generations back and the modifiers have carried through unseen). Given the smoke buck in question here, I would now suspect all of these may have been smoke pearl martens. IF the only time you've ever gotten kits with these lighter bellies is with this buck, I would say yes, he is the most likely source of the at gene. Martenized points (aka martenized himi, himi marten) are NOT always immediately apparent. Underside of the tail is usually white, inside of ears may be white, edges of ears may be laced, may be bits of white on the paws ... but often times the point color is just 'lighter' not actually erased - I think especially on ata. Given the temperature sensitivity of himi's, this can be missed. My daughter's Prussia (JW) is definitely ata (proven now) but he's passed on the showtable many times as a pointed. You would have to really separate the hairs on his tail to realize that most of the dark wool on the underside of his tail is actually rooted on top of his tail (long wool masks a lot of faults). His ears don't really look laced, but when you compare them to his nose color, they are substantially lighter (closer to sable).
This isn't surprising at all. He is probably ata, which means on average half the kits get the recessive 'a gene' from him and are perfectly normal. With your does clearly not carrying the modifiers for great marten markings, most of the martenized himi kits (all ata) will be even less noticeable than dad and most of the marten kits (sable/smoke) are likely to have the poor (easily missed) markings of the one you sold. |
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| sidd-says-gimme | May 18 2015, 11:10 AM Post #3 |
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sidd says stay gold
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I would say that the himi buck is a martenized himi, which is giving the person smoke pearl martens. That would explain the occurrence of "smokes with light bellies" and the otter/martens in that litter. |
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| whoalookitsme | May 18 2015, 12:57 PM Post #4 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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Thank you so much!! That's exactly everything that I was thinking! I'll let her know tonight!! |
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Raising Show Quality Tans, Polish, and Himalayans in Houston, Texas Owen's bunnies | |
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| twr | May 18 2015, 01:23 PM Post #5 |
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POWITH!!
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I agree with the others that the himi buck is probably martenised himi (given that the strange smokes only started turning up when he came along). When looking for the white marks associated with this I'd concentrate on the inside of the ears and under the tail. Even if there are no clear signs, he may still be the cause because some himi lines have steel in them. If the buck is ataB_ch_D_EsE (for example) he could look normal himi or martenised himi or anywhere in between. |
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| reh | May 18 2015, 03:47 PM Post #6 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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I also want to say himi/california may carry steel or dominant black (this was found by a investigation of E series alleles). This is a steeled otter and a steeled marten: .I am searching for a himalajan marten for a long time, but dont have got an good image up to now. May you ask the owner if i can get an image of it? Its for an explanation of the c series for print, i can send them the context for which i need it. |
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www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes www.satinangora.de | |
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| whoalookitsme | May 18 2015, 08:49 PM Post #7 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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Reh if it's for your color website then I'm sure she would have no issues. I will try to ask again for a photo. Thanks again guys! I'll let her know about the steel thing |
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Raising Show Quality Tans, Polish, and Himalayans in Houston, Texas Owen's bunnies | |
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| reh | May 20 2015, 11:14 AM Post #8 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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She can send me an email to admin@[my color website]. |
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www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes www.satinangora.de | |
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