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Salander/iron gray & self chin black
Topic Started: Jun 5 2015, 07:02 PM (342 Views)
volz83
Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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So one of Silvia's kits is black with very blue eyes. I asked why (on Facebook) would the eyes be blue and it was brought up that Silvia must be: aa, B_, cchd_, Dd, ee. I know we have talked about this as something possible with Silvia before. I didn't realize that salander looks so much like a sable point. It is very common here to breed agouiti with shaded. So the cchd gene can be put down as sable point due to very similar in color and only way to discover this is when you breed it to something like cchl, ch, c. I guess this can be the only way to explain the blue eyes as I guess it can also mess with eye color. So my kit is then a black or self chin ? What would the genetics be for that? It looks like one of Silvia's sable points (a buck) is probably a salander / iron gray as well. So now my questions are: what odd colors could I possibly get with iron grays bred to shaded? What should I list on the pedigrees? The little possible iron gray kit, I wouldn't really know for sure until bred so should I list him as sable point? Seems like everyone else is doing that without really knowing what they really have. Just some more imput would be wonderful :)
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wildrabbits
Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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Black self chin is aaB_cchd_D_E_ which can look like a black seal color if I remember it right. I had a rabbit aabbcchdcDdEe that looked like a chocolate seal and a aaBbcchdcddEe which looked like blue seal that came from a fawn and a REW, had me stumped for a while!

True breeding Sallander is aacchdcchdee. I couldnt tell you the odds from crosses of your sallander to shaded without the genotypes. I also cant really recommend anything for papers or show because I don't know the show standards for colors well enough. I think as long as it matches the color description without flaws it can be shown as said color right?

I have been wanting to see some different cchdcchl genotypes for quite some time! Please share pics of all your possible shaded chinchilla colors along with their eye coloring! =)
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NeuBunny
Genetics Geek!
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Chin and shaded genes add a lot of variability in color and both 'mess with' eye color.

chd is infamous for producing 'blue eyed black' and chl for 'brown eyed blues' -- in both cases, not always and sometimes even when just carrying the gene (e.g., Cchd or Cchl can also have eye color issues).

Black self chins often look seal, but sometimes are dark enough to pass for true black.

Showing is strictly by phenotype … if it 'looks like black' it can be shown as black, if it 'looks like seal' it can be shown as seal … even if you know that genetically it isn't. n your case, the blue eyes are going to be a show disqualification, so that isn't important.

Pedigrees are about breeding … you need to indicate somehow what the actual genetic color is. But there isn't a standard way to do that. I've seen pedigrees written as seal (self chin), black (self chin), or just self chin. In the case where the bunny isn't matching the standard (e.g., eye color DQ) I would just write self chin. If you aren't sure of the genotype (could be a poor black or a self chin … there are odd modifiers that can throw eye color DQs 'out of the blue' too) I would just add an asterisk by the color name and an explanation in the notes section such as *blue eyes, may be self chin.

Sallander = aa chd- ee
Sable point = aa chl- ee

Theoretically, chl dilutes eumelanin to a sepia tone while the chd stays black. But often chd 'fades' the eumelanin (poor black to seal) and we've all seen sables whose points are really black. On a lightly marked sallander or sable point it can be impossible to tell the difference based just on what you see.

One point of curiosity … on the selfs, we often see the chd fading eumelanin closer to a seal tone and messing with eye color. But in the black silver martens (at- + chd-) that doesn't seem to be a problem. Black silver martens and sable martens (aa + chl-) are no where close to the same color in our Jersey woolies. And from what I've seen in pictures, you wouldn't mistake a black silver marten for a seal marten (unshowable, but at- + chlchl) either.
Edited by NeuBunny, Jun 7 2015, 08:28 AM.
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reh
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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Had I in any way mentioned i am searching for an image of himalayan silver marten???

In context with seal looking cchd rabbits i want to mention cchm.
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
www.satinangora.de
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NeuBunny
Genetics Geek!
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reh - what gene combination do you mean by himalayan silver marten? I think of himalayans as aa + ch- and silver martens as at- + chd-

If you mean at- B- ch- D- E- (which I would call an otter point or martenized point)

then you can have this one of Prussia Posted Image

He's proven … ataB-chcDdE-

Edited by NeuBunny, Jun 7 2015, 01:16 PM.
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volz83
Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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Thanks Neubunny! Helped me to really understand it! I'm pretty sure the dark kit with blue eyes is: aa, B_, cchd, cchl, E_,.. it couldn't actually be black I assume because of Siamese Sable sire. If I sell her with pedigree I'll make note of it. As far as the possible Sallandar buck, I'm not completely sure if he really is, test breeding would be the only way to confirm it correct? If so, I don't want to say he is on pedigree unless I know 100%. I guess just list in notes that he is possibly cchd? I'm pretty sure his sable point sister is just that a sable point. The little buck has a creamy undercoat color with more contrast between the dark shading and the body color. You can really see this on sides of his belly. The girl, no creamy undercoat, just white and her side flank shading is very hard to make out. I have always noticed a creamer color on the buck but never knew why.
Edited by volz83, Jun 7 2015, 06:05 PM.
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reh
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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Yes, i meant atBchDE, but i need a position like this (face and feet visible) and good colors, no strong sun/shadows. normal or rex fur is preverable, but angora may be better then nothing :-)
Posted Image
Edited by reh, Jun 8 2015, 04:29 AM.
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
www.satinangora.de
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