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What is she?
Topic Started: Jun 15 2015, 04:50 PM (169 Views)
volz83
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So I compared my "siamese sable" doe out of Silvia, one that is always looking way too blue for her color, to Mocha (her half brother, SS) at 5 weeks old. Only a week difference and it is very obvious that she is not a Siamese Sable. I'm trying to figure out what she could be, perhaps a blue self chin? Someone said she kind of looks like a gold tipped blue steel. I find this interesting because, the sire Hershey, comes from a breeder who specializes in Gold tipped steels. On Hershey's 3rd gen. ped, he has a black great grandfather. I looked up this great grandfather who's name is: Mr. Koda and he (Koda) has produced steels. So my question is, can the steel gene hide amongst shaded? Silvia is most likely a Sallandar due to having a black kit with blue eyes in this litter as well. I know shaded genes fairly well but lost with steel and chins. Trying to narrow down her true color and see if I can still show her although her eyes are brown. I don't want to show with wrong eye color but I've seen people show blue points (none showable in Hollands), I have Savannah out of a well trusted breeder who is blue tort with brown eyes and earned a leg and previous doe: Khaluna who was broken smoke with brown eyes also with a leg. I just don't know if I should let it "slide" or don't show her.

Here she is on top compared to Mocha on bottom: By now, at 4 weeks old she should have turned over to the typical chocolate brown/tan just like Mocha.
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Some random pics of her:
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Update:

So someone, who is a breeder of dilutes (Himadri Hollands) and has had many many smoke pearls, said that my does is either a smoke (just a dark one) or possible blue seal. She said that the color gets lighter and is not at it's true adult coat color until 5 to 6 months old. She said that her eyes do look dilute.. I thought they looked brown but what do I know! This doe does not show some of the lighter tan markings that a steel would. She even has a few rabbits that are out of the same great grandfather sire: Koda! Who knew?! I am SO excited!! I can't believe how lucky I got with the genetics lol I will be renaming her. I assume unless I bred her to a REW carrying dilute with all shaded background, if she was a true smoke or blue seal so I will put her as a smoke pearl. I will also keep on tracking her color development to put up on our color sub groups. She also said that the brown ticking I am seeing is probably the normal ticking all shaded like sable points get. I know my more smutty sable points (like the sable points in this litter) have black ticking right now. Ekkk!! Doing the bunny happy dance! I almost thought she wouldn't make it because she was the smallest but she is so healthy and a DOE!!! :bundance2: :bundance2: /end my excitement
Edited by volz83, Jun 15 2015, 06:22 PM.
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NeuBunny
Genetics Geek!
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BTW, steel can hide in selfs ... the steel gene expresses only on agouti.

But I also think she looks more like a smoke or blue seal. Chl adds a 'sepia' tone over blue just as it does to shift black to sable ... just a lot more subtle in the dilute. And ruby cast over grey eyes fools me into thinking brown a lot.
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volz83
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Thanks Neubunny! Never knew what steel could hide behind, love learning new things. A lot of people would say that my kit was Siamese Sable but she always was so blue. When I took her out in the shade for her picture, I just knew she had to be a dilute, especially when I compared her pic to Mocha's. Yes the eyes where confusing because dilute eyes always look brown, a light brown to me and then you add the strong ruby cast lol but I can't be any happier!!
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twr
POWITH!!
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I'm rubbish with shaded (you have been warned) but I'd have guessed blue seal based on that image. I don't see signs of steel so I'd guess it is a true self aaE_. If there is steel in the background it could also be a true self hiding steel aaES_, or a false self A_ES_ (when steel pefectly mimics a true self). There's no way to tell without test breeding.

Good point on the eyes. I hadn't thought of that.
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volz83
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Gold tipped steels are very beautiful. You are correct in that I won't fully know if she's blue seal or smoke until I breed her. Right now as she is, I would guess smoke due to undercoat but I could be wrong lol. She did get the white grizzled fur which I do not know if only Siamese Sable and smokes get and not seals. So far through my research, I have not see any mention of seals developing that grizzled fur. Based on that assumption, I would think a darker smoke. Her under coat is very blue followed by a dove gray at the base of the fur, so I assume that the brown ticking, like Neubunny mentioned, is just that typical ticking shadeds temporarily get. Her fur has rings or different sections of color. Top of the hair is tipped with brown, followed by a dark deep blue, then the middle section is that very rich light blue and of course followed by the base being a very light dove.

Really going to be neat to see her change especially around 8 weeks old. My Siamese sables start to lighten up very quickly over the ugly stage. ^_^
Edited by volz83, Jun 16 2015, 12:41 PM.
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twr
POWITH!!
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volz83
Jun 16 2015, 12:40 PM
She did get the white grizzled fur
Am I right in thinking you are talking about the featured kit in the first image of this post and also the kit second from right in the fourth image? Is this what you mean by grizzled white? I'm trying to learn about shaded colour changes.

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volz83
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Kind of, she did have white ticking or grizzled fur is another term however she didn't have a whole lot of the ticking.
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twr
POWITH!!
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Thanks but I think you've misunderstood my question slightly. I would like to know if the bluish kit that started this thread also featured in one of your "growing up shaded" threads and if so, I'd like you to point out this specifc kit in a pic when it was much younger, preferably one that illustrates what you mean by "white grizzled fur" in this specific kit. I hope that is clearer.
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volz83
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lol sorry about that! I had dental work done so head was kind of cloudy :-P

So yes she was in that thread you linked to however I have a slightly better picture of the grizzled fur on her. I do want to mention that although she did have it, it was much more faint than what you would normally see on a Siamese Sable. She also developed more brown ticking than white so I think that is why she didn't have as much white grizzled fur. For a good example of it, I posted another picture (2nd one on the bottom) of it. It is more of like white ticking intermingled with in the normal fur. It usually shows up at about a week old and last only I would say for half a week or so (but haven't really noted when it actually fades away, just from memory).

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This is my buck Mocha ^_^
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reh
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In another forum once i read such described as typical for sables kits.
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
www.satinangora.de
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twr
POWITH!!
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Thanks for your patience volz83. Looking back through the thread I think this colour change starts on day 5, has largely faded on day 11 and completely gone by the next pics at 2.5 wks.

I wonder if the brown rather than light ticking is directly related to this kit being dilute. There is a plausible biological reason why dilutes might be less susceptible to moderate shading than the equivalent non-dilutes.
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volz83
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Your welcome :) yeah I found at about day 5 that the color really starts to change and then again at around 2 weeks old. I'm taking once a week pics of her from 4 weeks on to document the color change.

So far, one thing I'm noticing is: with Siamese sables, the main light tan body color first starts to show up on the chest then creeps up the face and progress on the rest of the body. The back/saddle always is darker and the last to lighten up. I find the biggest/dramatic color change from kit coat color (always really dark) to final adult coat starts right around 7 to 8 weeks old. With Sephora, I'm noticing this exact change except just blue vs. She has a very blue/gray dove color on chest while her back is darker blue. I assume I'll see the biggest changes in color at the beginning and duration of the "ugly stage" (from baby coat to adult coat) starting probably around 8 weeks old (varies in different lines when ugly stage begins).
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