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Aa genotype interactions; Sometimes genes can't hide
Topic Started: Jun 25 2015, 07:57 PM (490 Views)
wildrabbits
Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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Neubunny I did not realize that wideband has a codominance of its own but the one opal I have seems ww for sure to me when compared to the others...
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Edited by wildrabbits, Jun 27 2015, 04:47 PM.
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reh
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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Maybe you can do me a favor and dont call a shading in pheomelanin intensity tort pattern marking? Beside this, i always mismatch the difference between the words pattern and marking.
WHY do you think this lighter pheomelanin has something to do with Aa???????
I cannot tell you which second A allele the rexrexlein (thermorabbit) carries, i hade only one black rabbit in this herd, all others are agouti, agouti-japanese or japanese. But i have way too much with this lighter flank pattern for them all to be Aa and AA rabbits have this pattern too.

Here are some more, which has good chances to be german breeds and therefore probably AA: Posted Image Posted Image
AA: Posted Image

This is Aat, for at on upper part looking like a it should have light parts for your theory: Posted Image

I also dont know of a codominance in W.
Edited by reh, Jun 27 2015, 05:18 PM.
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
www.satinangora.de
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wildrabbits
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Here is his 3/4th cousin who I seems AatCcchddd. His coloring is very even and a much darker blue compared to all other opals. The white under chin and belly seems more pronounced, he carries an orange border above the white like an otter but does not have the orange otter ticking on the sides, instead the side ticking is silver/white
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wildrabbits
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The first two rabbits you picture still look like Aa... Now if you add En to this I would think that will scramble it all anyways..
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wildrabbits
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My suspected AatCcchdddE_ above has never shown the lighter flanks of the "a" pattern. The one I suspect of wideband never really had the pronounced lighter flanks either.

This is the AaCcddEe female
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wildrabbits
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And finally here is the father of the one I suspect to be Aat. This guy is AaEe. He is molting but has always had lighter side flanks.
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wildrabbits
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Here is the same AaEe male without molt at time of pairing with blue otter rex
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wildrabbits
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Notice that his lightened Aa side flank is there but it doesn't tend to be as pronounced on opals.

A question comes to mind that I have to ask, does red coloring tend to change by season? Has anyone noticed this kind of thing at all?
Edited by wildrabbits, Jun 28 2015, 01:03 AM.
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wildrabbits
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Sorry about the huge pics of poor quality, didn't have time to resize them all. I am also very limited by my lighting and camera.

Reh can you tell me more about this rabbit in particular Posted Image why do you say it is AatEe for sure? I thought red rabbits like this are suppose to be ee/? Also why you don't think it could be chocolate?? This is a beautiful rabbit! I would love to know as much about it as you can spare. Have you kept it and test bred it? What colors were the parents?
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reh
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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Couldnt you rather made a list of what exact effects you think are from Aa? (which color in which intensity in which place and in which width)

The rabbit is a high rufus wideband agouti I have pictured myself, from someone who likes to buy different truebreed rabbits and have a litter out of them. I translated the entry description.
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
www.satinangora.de
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HRoberts
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POWITH!!
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Red coloring, and all other colors, will vary with fur condition, which is undeniably linked with season. Since you cannot separate fur condition from season except under highly experimental conditions, and you can't separate fur condition from the intensity of color observed in old vs. new hairs, you end up with an indirect but very apparent relationship. Daylength and environmental temperature influence metabolism of many nutritional and anti-nutritional factors, which combined with simple aging of the hair shaft leads to a change in perceived color.
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wildrabbits
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I haven't seen or studied all colors of Aa, I won't report claims of things I haven't seen and I don't know. I also haven't bred specifically for wideband so I am very limited on the info there with different interactions.

What I can truly say for sure is that every AaC_Ee and AaC_ee rabbit I have ever had displays the exact same light flank markings and particular face discolorations no matter what the breed or bloodline. Smut and dark shading are secondary things to note that come more with age and season. I found some old pics I posted on a site a while back that really show lighter flanking on all different kinds of Aa rabbits but I am unsure how to transfer those here...?

I was trying to think if there has been significant red-white color changes on any of my Ccchd_e rabbits reacting to different seasons. Sadly I have not really considered of taking note of this in the past.

HRoberts and Reh have either of you ever worked with ww genes on blue or lilac colored rabbits or have either of you seen a ww rabbit appear mostly white in undercolor then change to red at junior age? My opal just started getting this deep red effect over this last month and he is about 6.5 months old now
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HRoberts
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POWITH!!
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Well darn, I had a reply typed up and internet went caput.

I think what you're seeing is A) maturation of a juvenile, which is normal (don't judge reds as juniors with baby coats, the wideband isn't very evident until they have adult fur in). B) regarding the fading of your Agoutis this is rather normal with environment, genetics and feed. It's more of a nutritional issue than genetic one, from my understanding. Do you know the source and quantity (and age) of your fat in your feed? The hair on your rabbits looks oxidized, which could be from simply time, environment (bucks are notorious for urinating on themselves and rubbing their sides in it, thus they will often have very faded sides if they develop this habbit)... Bucks are worse if kept near does, so it's always best to keep buck barns and doe barns separate if possible. The hair could also be fading quickly due to nutritional factors, but that is a rather complex system that is difficult to pinpoint. I doubt your feed label lists specific amino acids but if it does let us know.

Lilacs (and chocolates) fade terribly. If there is a genetic, nutritional or environmental reason for color to fade and coat quality to go downhill in your barn your lilacs are going to go first. Don't dare keep them in the sun they will look brown by the end of a few weeks, and their coats just get fried.
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wildrabbits
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HRoberts what is your deal with all these endless suggestions that the colors of my rabbits being due to feed or "bad genes". Its like you have never even considered different color gene interactions to be the cause of unshowable or "off" colors when this is only one of the most widely known proven causes of different colors...

As far as feed goes, 2/3rds or so of what my rabbits eat is from dozens of different sources which I organically grow myself. Not to sound full of myself but I am fairly confident my rabbits are healthier and eat better than 90% of most typical rabbits from breeders...Dry processed feed is NEVER healthier than multiple organic foods for ANY animal. Americans are just now catching on to the "No GMO" and "Only Organic" ways of eating now that people are seeing the causes of what unhealthy foods do... GMO foods and certain pesticides are becoming banned widespread in countries all over the world now...kinda speaks for itself there when you see those kinds of actions in play...

Now obviously since you can't keep up with anything I say HRoberts, I will explain it AGAIN. Aa produces light flank marking that is even more pronounced during youth! If you have En, dutch, and/or ej in the lines you probably wont have any idea what I am talking about. Breed a self to a pearl or a chinchilla to a tort and you will see this light flanking on most if not all Aa genotypes from the litter. AGAIN En, dutch, and ej will distort this to where you probably won't have any idea of what you are talking about or how to recognize the light flanks. If you won't take my word on it from breeding numerous unrelated self to pearls or torts to chinchillas over the years producing the same effect then I really don't have anything else to say other than try yourself.The genes and indisputable inheritance from such crosses speaks for itself.Tort can't really hide much.

If you don't work with cchd in your lines or breed for it at all then please don't bother making a comment stating that it is or is not codominant with C or that Ccchd doesn't have the ability to cause a faded look due to less full color being expressed in the coat(which is basically what cchd is already known to do). Breeding frosty chinchilla colors shows specifically how cchd_ can and does involve an incomplete dominance effect from differing C-series mixes.
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reh
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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A german judge confirmed the light side pattern in agouti colors beeing a fault. In germany all colors have to be breed separately, crossbreeding colors is not allowed. Not all breeder follow this rules. There are some "black sheep" who do not allowed crossbreeding to improve noncolor traits. But i think one can say most rabbits are fairly homozygous in regards to colors. Why would they have the light flanks as a common fault then?

And again, please make a short list/table which phenotypic trait you account to which genetics (bandwidth, bandcolor, dark tip length, such things, no allover color impressions) rather then writing long texts dont telling me what i want to know.
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
www.satinangora.de
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