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| how do two purbreed californians have black kits | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 3 2015, 03:57 PM (106 Views) | |
| havery1985 | Aug 3 2015, 03:57 PM Post #1 |
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Social Bunny
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Ok I just got a Californian from a breeder he is 3 yrs old and I was shown his babies. The mother was also the standard colors of a californian but they had solid black kits? What happened? And is there a chance my doe will have black kits with the buck I got and can they still be called purebred Californians if they are? |
| Heather Avery richieavery1983@gmail.com | |
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| sidd-says-gimme | Aug 3 2015, 05:49 PM Post #2 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Himi/californian color should only be able to produce himi/cal or REW. Are you sure both of the parents are true cal (black points, white body, red eyes)? If so, then another buck may have been the culprit. |
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| havery1985 | Aug 4 2015, 07:49 PM Post #3 |
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Social Bunny
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Ok cause the guy I got my buck from has the dark nose, ears, and feet like his breed is ment to and so does the doe he mated with but all of the babies were black. I just don't want it to happen to me. |
| Heather Avery richieavery1983@gmail.com | |
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| sidd-says-gimme | Aug 5 2015, 09:45 AM Post #4 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Are the eyes red for sure? If they are, then the father must have been another buck. Sometimes people forget who was bred to who or they can breed through the wire. If they have kids, who knows, kids could have put them together to "play". Were the kits for sure black? How old were they? Sometimes cal/himi babies are chilled at birth, which affects the coloring. They will turn darker overall, though I don't think they ever turn completely black looking and they would still have red eyes. They do grow out of this and will turn into normal cals. If they were standards blacks then there must be another buck involved. |
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| NeuBunny | Aug 10 2015, 04:06 PM Post #5 |
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Genetics Geek!
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I would vote for the 'other buck' theory too. Black kits all have normal brown eyes (not pink) and both (presumed) parents are full black with pink eyes? A sable point might pass for pointed except it would have brown eyes (in which case it is NOT pure californian). An (extremely) chilled kit might go black (should molt that out with the baby coat), but would still have pink eyes. To the best of my knowledge, only pointed (ch-), REW (cc) and lutino (pp) genotypes can give pink eyes. The latter two shouldn't be in purebred californian lines. Lutino dilutes, so at least one parent would have had very faded points. A handful of 'one-in a million' scenarios (like genetic chimeras, back mutations, etc) are possible, but a whole litter from 'purebreds'? Possibly some really odd recessive mutation in an inbred line - but even then the odds would only stand at 25% per kit. |
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| wildrabbits | Aug 13 2015, 04:38 AM Post #6 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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What is the full genotype of a typical purebred californian rabbit? I ask because the Ed extension gene is supposed to be most commonly seen in silverfox and newzealand blacks if I remember things right.. The Ed gene might be the cause of the entire litter coming out black if that was the case...you have to keep in mind purebreds and listed colors on pedigrees don't automatically mean the genotype will ALWAYS be same, show rules and guidelines go by phenotype and not so much by actual genotype |
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| NeuBunny | Aug 13 2015, 10:14 AM Post #7 |
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Genetics Geek!
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A purebred Californian should be aaBBchchDDEE I'm not 100% sure on the epistatic relationship between the C and E locus... but I think C takes precedence in 'blocking' eumelanin production ... so ch-Ed- would still be pointed with pink eyes. Even if the reverse is true and ch-Ed- is solid black, then one of the parents would have to be the source of the Ed gene which is dominant and cannot hide so the parent would also be black. The only way I can see of getting an all black kit out of two purebred californians is a mutation ... ch 'reverting' to C (classic back mutation) or E mutating to Ed. That's a 'one in a million' event ... the odds of that happening simultaneously to all the kits in an entire litter are pretty astronomical. The other possibility is that one of the parents is a genetic chimera (fusion of two embryos in utero or a somatic mutation) in which the body is one genotype (aaBBchchDDEE) and the reproductive organs are another genotype (CC or EdEd to get ALL kits black). Again, that second genotype has to have a source (either mutation or crossbreeding) ... and has to have effected BOTH copies of that DNA identically to get all the kits the same ... pretty astronomical odds multiplying two 'one in a million' events (double mutation AND perfectly masked chimera). |
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| twr | Aug 13 2015, 04:15 PM Post #8 |
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POWITH!!
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A purebred californian can often be aaBBchchDDESES or even A_BBchchDDESES. See Fontanesi, L., Forestier, L., Allain, D., Scotti, E., Beretti, F., Deretz-Picoulet, S., Pecchioli, E., Vernesi, C., Robinson, T.J. & Malaney, J.L. (2010) - Characterization of the rabbit agouti signaling protein (ASIP) gene: Transcripts and phylogenetic analyses and identification of the causative mutation of the nonagouti black coat colour, Table 1, page number 170, PDF page 5 of 10. This says that of 56 californians tested, all of which looked like a normal aaEE californian, 100% were ESES of which 38 (68%) were aaESES, 15 (27%) were AaESES and 3 (5%) were AAESES. I've come across two explanations why ES might be common in californians: 1. Visual appearance - it makes the points darker, which is the desirable pattern. I favour this explanation. 2. Meat qualities - it causes faster growth rate. I think this is unlikely. I think ES then gets from californians into other meat rabbits (eg NZW) via the people that think any albino meat rabbit is a purebred NZW and any with a himi pattern is a californian. As far as genetic testing has been able to tell, ES and ED are the same thing, the difference must come from other factors that have not been identified (probably modifier genes, but I suppose environmental factors might also have some effect). i.e. ED is just the extreme end of a spectrum in which some ES are darker than others. This is above and beyond the consistent effect that ESES is darker than a related ESE. cc is completely epistatic to all other mammal colour genes. This is because it completely breaks an essential step very early in the pigment production process. There is then no pigment for any of the other genes to work on. There is no plausible way a truly ccEDED rabbit* could be anything other then REW. *ie ignoring the one in a million chimeras and mosaics. I also would assume a mystery sire. I vaguely recall reading a quote or something (nothing to do with rabbits) along the lines of "motherhood is a fact, fatherhood is just an opinion". |
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| NeuBunny | Aug 14 2015, 10:11 AM Post #9 |
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Genetics Geek!
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ES being steel? Interesting ... My recollection is that EsEs is black (regardless of A or a) ... A-Es- is steel and aaEs- is also black. The issue though, is that Californians have to be chch or chc. Otherwise you can't get the pink eyes with the colored points. And regardless of what you have at the A or E locus, you can't get a black without a more dominant C-allele (maybe chd, but usually C). |
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| twr | Aug 14 2015, 02:32 PM Post #10 |
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POWITH!!
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Yes by ES I meant steel. Somehow I forgot our conventions. I actually wrote Es first but it didn't look right.That does often happen but while aaEs- is always black, A-EsEs and A-Es- can vary. Some people find that their EsEs have clearly visible ticking (although they are much darker than their Es-). Other people find they have an A-Es- that looks completely black (usually when they get a mystery agouti kit in a cross with an aa self or tort). Absolutely. I'm not sure why I went off on a tangent with cc. It is not plausible for Es or Ed to make a ch- look like a self. There is an outside chance that it could make a chlchl seal look more like a self and mess with any tricks that might visually distinguish between true self black and self chin. But that isn't relevant in this case. |
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| NeuBunny | Aug 16 2015, 05:30 PM Post #11 |
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Genetics Geek!
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lol - tangents can be fun and informative! |
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| reh | Aug 17 2015, 02:31 PM Post #12 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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Fontanesi found a mutation in black looking rabbits. He dont know if it is ES or ED. There are no phenotypical steel rabbits in the sampled rabbits list, only agouti, black and white ones. I gave him samples of steel rabbits, but they are not yet sequenced. |
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www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes www.satinangora.de | |
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| wildrabbits | Aug 21 2015, 09:07 PM Post #13 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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From some of my early pairings I would have to completely disagree that Es and Ed are the same thing when I never once had a steel colored rabbit descending from my first black female...Crossing a chestnut to a black shouldn't ever result in a litter having 6 full black and one fawn for example. I have to admit that I knew nearly nothing about color genes at the time though and I didn't keep any black rabbits or the source to further study now so none of my reported experiences really should have a bearing here overall. Unless Ed can be effected by the A series and/or different C series combinations I am at a loss. Please keep us updated on the litter and future litters with pics =) Edited by wildrabbits, Aug 21 2015, 09:35 PM.
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| wildrabbits | Sep 11 2015, 08:08 PM Post #14 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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Havery can you give us any updates as to how the litter has progressed? Also I am very curious of how the fur from each parent is here. Do they both have short coats, rollback, flyback, wooly, ect..?? |
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