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Chinchilla x broken tort = ?
Topic Started: Aug 19 2015, 10:18 AM (88 Views)
sidd-says-gimme
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sidd says stay gold
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A friend of mine knows someone with some 4H bunnies and they recently found a surprise litter of 4! The buggers live side by side. The mother is a chinchilla, father is broken tort. The resulting babies are 2 REW and the others look sable point (one is for sure sable point, not ermine/frosty! the other is broken but still looks sable point). How could this happen?! I think I know the answer, but I might be wrong so I'm hoping that someone can explain it to me just to see. :P
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twr
POWITH!!
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I'll have a go, but I've a feeling I've not found your answer so it might just confuse things...

Nominal genotypes (in case I've got confused by the names)
sire, broken tort: aa B_ C_ D_ ee Enen
dam, chinchilla: aa B_ cchd_ D_ E_
dam, chinchilla: A_ B_ cchd_ D_ E_

Kits are:
REW: __ __ cc __ __
Sable point: aa B_ cchl (ch|c) D_ ee

Kits are not:
Ermine: A_ B_ cchd_ D_ ee
Frosty: A_ B_ cchd_ dd ee

I'm going to ignore broken because it doesn't seem to make any real difference to the problem or the possible alternatives.

The immediate problem is that the REW make the parents aa B_ Cc D_ ee Enen and A_ B_ cchdc D_ E_, which leaves nowhere for the cchl to come from.

Alternatives:
  • The supposed sire isn't (but It sounds like you think that is ruled out).
  • Spontaneous mutation/mosaic/chimera (wildly unlikely).
  • The chinchilla isn't (and/or the Sable points aren't). This would have to be due to the dark end of one type of shaded overlapping with the light end of another. Something like cchm being able to pass as cchd in the dam and cchl in the kits. I usually get those possibilities wrong though.
  • The REWs aren't. Having two of them makes this less likely.

    • ch_ vv (himi+BEW) looks exactly like REW. But it doesn't help in this case because it still leaves nowhere for cchl to come from.
    • cchd_ pp (chin and lutino) looks a lot like REW, even more so if it is ee. This one does work in theory, but is unlikely in practice since AFAIK p is really rare and you'd be likely to know if it was a possibility.
... and that's it, I'm out of ideas that are even vaguely sensible. What did I miss?

EDIT: Fixed typos - chinchilla is A_ not aa.
Edited by twr, Aug 20 2015, 01:25 PM.
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NeuBunny
Genetics Geek!
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Chinchilla is agouti (A-) ... must be Aa if you are sure the kit isn't ermine.

So
sire, broken tort: aa B_ C_ D_ ee Enen
dam, chinchilla: Aa B_ cchd_ D_ E_ enen

IF kits include REW, both parents must carry REW ...

sire, broken tort: aa B_ CcD_ ee Enen
dam, chinchilla: Aa B_ cchdc D_ E_ enen

Sable point requires an e gene ... so the dam must carry that
dam, chinchilla: Aa B_ cchdc D_ Ee enen

sable point requires a cchl gene...which isn't possible with REW siblings.

1) Is it possible the 'REW' kits are ermine? Sometimes ermine take a while for the point color to come in and I've had one where the only color was a little spot on top of the tail (hidden against the body when the tail was in the normal 'upright' position (though he did develop smut on his ear tips too as he got older). And a broken ermine might be 'lucky' enough to have no color left. Those wouldn't have red eyes though.

If you are sure on the REW...
Either (2) your chinchilla is actually a sable-chin (A-B-cchl-D-E- enen) -- which usually have some pretty significant shading and more of a 'brownish' tone to the coat.
Or (3) your 'sablepoint' babies could be 'black pearl' (a showable color in angoras) aaB-cchd-D-E-. These are often almost indistinguishable from a dark sable point, though they shouldn't have the 'brownish' tones.

and as twr points out, cchm is always a possibility, as it overlaps the expression of cchd and cchl.

twr -- Might be a difference here in what we call the 'nonstandard' colors ... to me ermine and frosty are the same thing ... with dd being a 'blue ermine' or 'blue frosty'.
Edited by NeuBunny, Aug 20 2015, 11:23 AM.
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sidd-says-gimme
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sidd says stay gold
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That's what I was thinking, Neubunny! The white kits definitely have red eyes though. Both darker kits look to be sable points rather than frosty/ermine as they don't have any ticking, they have clear shading, and no agouti rings. Plus, they look exactly like any other sable point I've ever had.

My thoughts were that the "sable points" could be sallander/iron grey/pearl. Is this possible? From the one baby picture I've seen of the chinchilla mother, she looks like a very normal black chinchilla.
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NeuBunny
Genetics Geek!
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sallander is another name for what I call black pearl (lol - accepted angora names are always my default).

primary consistent difference between pearl (aa) and ermine (A-) is on the tail. Underside of the tail is always white on an ermine, whole tail colored on a pearl. Ermines sometimes do show shading too - and ticking/rings can be blurred (well at least on angoras)
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wildrabbits
Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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Pics????
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