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Orange x Tort
Topic Started: Nov 14 2015, 10:52 PM (152 Views)
volz83
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By chance I ended up with a broken orange doe that was another breeders loss from lack of space so my gain! I couldn't say no, orange is up their as one of my favorite colors. I have done some very basic research on the color and I know they can cross safely with tort especially a tort with high rufus factor. I see the difference in orange is: A instead of a but for those familiar with this color, what should I know? How to improve orange color, etc. Of course no crossing with my Sable points, seals and Siamese sables, just sticking with my tort bucks. If this doe produces decent type in kits I'll keep her around, if not I'll sell. Any advice is greatly appreciated, I want to do this right the best I can!

I do not have her pedigree, I will get it next Saturday so I do not know if the doe is black based or chocolate based but I do know none of my hollands carry chocolate (highly unlikely, be very rare) so I assume they do not but you never know. I will assume she probably has agouti background as the breeder has a lot of chestnuts etc and never has any shaded colors besides tort so I will assume for now, that she probably carries: cchd gene.


Edit:

I have been doing some research and I was wondering also about red, I know red has to have "ww" (wide band which I read is recessive) so if you bred an orange "w" carrier to another orange carrier, could you possibly get red? Not looking to actually get into that color but want to know what I can about all the wide band colors now that I have an Orange. I also know I could possibly get frosty if I have cchd gene at play somewhere with the orange doe and/or mine and I also now have my blue doe (which comes out of some agouti colors) that in the future with her kits, could get me cream later on. I know I will have to keep any Orange to only my torts but since tort is: aa,B,C,D,ee and Orange is: A,B,C,D,ee, it shouldn't mess with any coloration in my torts correct or no? I have read as well that for cleaner Oranges people are saying using otter and/or chestnut but I'm just looking mainly for type (why I went with her) and yes I do want Oranges but I'm not looking to breed for super clean Oranges but decent ones with what I can with tort. Neubunny I need your advice lol =P
Edited by volz83, Nov 15 2015, 02:53 PM.
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volz83
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Well I talked with the breeder more today and she avoids otter all together so no worries with the at gene messing things up (unshowable colors like tort otter). Her sire is Orange, dam Tort so she is either "AA" or "Aa". I assume if I get all orange in litter bred to a tort then she's probably "AA"?
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NeuBunny
Genetics Geek!
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Start with a correction - orange in most breeds is A-B-C-D-ee (low rufus) OR A-bbC-D-ee (which can be low or high rufus as the chocolate alone lightens the orange color). Personally, I'm partial to the bb version as chocolate smut blends better with orange.

If her dam is tort, she is definitely Aa (her dam was aa so could only give her a). Bred to a tort, expect 50/50 litters of orange and tort.

Whether to cross torts and oranges is interesting. On the base 5, it appears to be a single gene difference (A- versus aa) - so first thought is why not. But the modifiers between the two can differ quite a bit … both the tort and orange offspring from crosses have a tendency to be smutty and have off under colors (and the oranges may have 'residual shading') - nothing you can't correct over time, but be aware the first generation offspring may have some issues with color evenness. lol - that said, I'm regularly crossing fawn (angora term for orange) with torts (probably helps that smut ends up almost invisible on my nice long angora fur - especially since all mine are chocolate-based so any smut is paler chocolate rather than black). If your goal is type and not 'super clean oranges' you will be fine.

To think about - my understanding is that depending on breed, most good oranges are chocolate-based. If your breed doesn't allow chocolate tort, crossing is not advised.

Both red AND orange should be ww. That diminishes smut on agoutis and helps keep the red/orange color all the way to the skin as well as apparently help keep markings white (rather than creamy or bluish). Red and oranges differ on two genetic points - reds are always black based and high rufus. Oranges are chocolate based and/or low rufus. Torts may or may not be ww (a lot of torts that have red/orange/fawn among their ancestors are ww or Ww). As the effect of w is completely invisible on a tort, you can't select for or against it.

Blue (dd) shifts orange/red to cream and tort to blue tort and chocolate tort to lilac tort.
chd shifts orange/red/cream to frosty and tort to pearl/sallander.

You might take a look at my current litter of French angoras (posted in breeding basics) … that's from a chocolate tort doe (aabbC-Ddee) and a fawn/cream (he has brown eyes, but I think he is genetic cream because his smut is pale lilac) buck (AabbC-ddee) in which one or both are carrying chl (lighter version of what you get with chd).
Edited by NeuBunny, Nov 22 2015, 10:23 AM.
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volz83
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Thank you very much! Hollands allow for chocolate tort so no worries their. The breeder is very familiar with genetics so her line is pretty clean thankfully! I agree in that I do like the chocolate base oranges vs black based. Chocolate is fairly common in my area, several breeders breed them so wouldn't surprise me if a chocolate gene has been hiding in my lines. I'm happy she is "Aa" and can't wait to breed her in 2 weeks! I will go take a look at your current litter again ^_^
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wildrabbits
Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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I can't wait to see pics of your resulting crosses between these colors Volz, very curious to see if you run into the distinctive Aaee patterns I have seen over and over from different bloodlines =)
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volz83
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Thanks! I bred Luigi, my broken tort buck to her today! If she took, kits will be born the first week of January!
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