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| Unexpected in silver litter | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 3 2016, 10:37 AM (315 Views) | |
| redbunny | Jan 3 2016, 10:37 AM Post #1 |
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I would appreciate any thoughts on this please as I've run out of ideas. Fours years ago I started on my quest to develop a silver ND. I bought a champagne d'argent. He was young enough to still be black. I eventually mated him to my very best type black ND doe and her litter were all black with three eventually showing degrees of silvering. The type wasn't brilliant but they were small. I took the best doe and put her back to the original champagne father and produced all black youngsters which all silvered up showing increased silver covering. I took the best doe from this litter and mated her to an outstanding black ND and was delighted by the quality of type and colour. Here comes the issue. I left the litter together a bit too long. One of the does had mated with one of her brothers. She had four youngsters one black and three of these tortoiseshell looking kits. I'm thinking they look blue. Certainly the iris looks like a dilute. So, if all my silvers were based on black which has to be aa, where did this result come from? Any thoughts would be welcome. In four years my silvers have always produced black based silvers. Incidently, the black looks small and typey where as these three don't. They will have big ears and look rangy. ![]()
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| NeuBunny | Jan 4 2016, 09:49 AM Post #2 |
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Genetics Geek!
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Close linebreeding is infamous for aligning recessive genes and bringing out/back traits that have otherwise been hiding for generations. -- getting 3 out of 4 looking like this is really losing the dice roll though (odds for blue tort out of 2 blacks is only 1 in 16 when both parents are carriers for both genes). Both dilutes and torts are also aa. The issue is where dd (dilute) and ee (tort) are coming from. My guess is that the black ND buck was DdEe (given he is the new variable). Even if he had no blues or torts in his direct lineage (on the pedigree), he may have had siblings and cousins that were blue and/or tort - recessives can easily hide for more than 3 generations on a pedigree. The rangy type on the other hand, is more likely a throwback to the original champagnes. Edited by NeuBunny, Jan 4 2016, 09:53 AM.
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| redbunny | Jan 4 2016, 01:23 PM Post #3 |
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Thank you NeuBunny for having a think on this one. You made me think in as much that I see black and I assume everything is fine. I don't consider any other gene other than the silver of course. What I'll do is go back and look at every mating of this family and see where issues might have arisen. |
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| redbunny | Jan 7 2016, 10:46 AM Post #4 |
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Well I'm not the brightest of things am I? I had it in my mind that tortoiseshell was based on agouti with ee giving the red base and it's not. It's based on the aa self! Thank you NeuBunny for fo using my mind. I spoke with the lady I bought the black ND father from and she tells me that he is Bb. OK I need to think a bit more. |
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| redbunny | Jan 24 2016, 10:14 AM Post #5 |
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These babies are silvers get up now as expected. Homozygous si. Far too rangy for Netherlands but a very attractive colour.
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| sidd-says-gimme | Jan 24 2016, 04:58 PM Post #6 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Pretty! A very neat project!
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| redbunny | Jan 28 2016, 04:34 PM Post #7 |
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| NeuBunny | Jan 29 2016, 08:56 AM Post #8 |
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Genetics Geek!
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pretty! must be fun to watch the color shift |
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| redbunny | Jan 30 2016, 04:16 AM Post #9 |
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What an amazing colour. The change is very rapid once it begins and just sweeps over the bunny. I think you need to be careful with this gene as there the intensity of its expression is incredible. It could quite easily pass as a black rabbit with a few white hairs just as a none si black rabbit might get them with age. I'll put up a photo later of what I mean. I have read some authors consider it a recessive gene whilst others a dominant. Maybe there are two versions. |
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| wildrabbits | Feb 2 2016, 03:45 PM Post #10 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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Fancy glowy silver =)
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| redbunny | Feb 7 2016, 04:37 PM Post #11 |
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Haha wildrabbits they sure have something fancy (or classy....or maybe magical) about them. Wonderful temperaments but not in anyway ND typey. |
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| redbunny | Feb 21 2016, 08:01 AM Post #12 |
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A striking colour but this is meant to be a ND...
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| NeuBunny | Feb 22 2016, 09:08 AM Post #13 |
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Genetics Geek!
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From discussion on a facebook genetics board. Most people (on that board) doing champagne crosses seem to report this as a co-dominant gene ... offspring (which are heterozygous) always show some silvering, but much less than a champagne ... offspring have a degree of silvering more like a silver fox. Folks doing crosses with silver fox indicate that most (but maybe not all?) offspring have silvering at a level similar to parents. Anyone here have the same or different experience with this? (incidentally, no one on that board seems sure whether the silver gene in silver fox is actually the same as the gene in champagnes, a separate allele, or something completely different). |
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| reh | Feb 23 2016, 04:06 AM Post #14 |
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Get the Duct Tape, Stat!
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In Europe silvering is symbolized with a big letter and called co-dominant. They say, never ever cross in silvering where you don't want it, because its very difficult to get rid of it. |
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www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes www.satinangora.de | |
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| NeuBunny | Feb 23 2016, 10:16 AM Post #15 |
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Genetics Geek!
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Interesting ... usually dominants and even co-dominants are considered relatively easy to get rid of. Only one I usually hear not to mess with is vienna -- because it can hide sometimes (vienna carriers), other times give marks (vienna marked). Perhaps silvering is similar with variable expression in the heterozygote. |
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1:38 PM Jul 11