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| Otter gene? pics should be working now | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 7 2016, 05:56 PM (298 Views) | |
| volz83 | Jan 7 2016, 05:56 PM Post #1 |
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Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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Ok here's one for you! Sarah my "orange" doe gave birth to five healthy kits. I have had a ton of black tort kits born in the last 5 years so I know what they look like at day 1 after birth. Well today when I was doing updated pictures on Day 1 of her kits, I noticed that one of the kits looked just like a solid black tort but one problem, it's belly is completely pink!! You can clearly see visible side flank shading just like with a tort so it must be a tort otter correct?? Which if so, what does that mean for Sarah? Is she a true Orange or could she to be a broken tort otter? She is very orange in color. Her pedigree is 4 generations and their is zero otter on there but I know it can hide as "A" is dominant. However her sire was tort her dam orange. She has mostly tort and orange mixed in with cream in her pedigree. Only two misc. colors which are Opal (3rd gen) and chestnut (4th gen). Also the breeder is fairly knowledgeable of genetics and stays far away from any otters so I need help figuring out what is going on here lol Here is the kit in question, a picture of it's belly: ![]() Here are all the kits. Kit in question is on the far left side of the picture. You can see it's side flank shading. It does have pink around it's eyes and especially around the nose area and around the neck.
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| wildrabbits | Jan 7 2016, 10:32 PM Post #2 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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Aa-ee-enen genotypes should be really visible and distinguishable once the fur comes out more, by 4 weeks of age you can tell Aaee without broken genes for sure..belly stays relatively lighter in color with the same light color extending side flanks in a tort pattern..When I first started seeing it I thought "at" gene..I look forward to more pictures as they age =) |
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| twr | Jan 8 2016, 02:00 PM Post #3 |
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POWITH!!
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A tort with agouti-like white on the belly and inside the ears is a tort otter. The kit looks like tort otter to me but I have a small doubt that at that age it might be that the pinker colour has more to do with the fur not coming in yet rather than that the fur will be white. If you have tort and tort otter in the same litter then barring the unlikely* one of the parents must be ata, so visibly otter/marten/tort-otter/whatever (unless hidden by rew or similar). It doesn't have to be Sarah, *Mixups like dual sires or escaped kits are often worth considering. Genetic oddities like mosaics and new mutations are always technically possible but so rare it is best to ignore them. Edit: Oops, thanks Neubunny for reminding me that Sarah is 'orange'. Edited by twr, Jan 8 2016, 03:47 PM.
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| NeuBunny | Jan 8 2016, 03:08 PM Post #4 |
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Genetics Geek!
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Sarah is 'orange' - what was the sire to this litter? Some of the kits look broken - I assume he is the broken? 1) This kit may be a heavily (and unfortunately) marked broken tort. Give it a bit to see if it has white anywhere other than belly, eye circles, inside ears, etc. 2) The kit may be a really really smutty orange/red. Since smut is all at the tips, you see it much more clearly when the babies are still tiny. If this is the case, the points will lighten dramatically as the fur grows in - the only dark color is smut at the tips of the hair and underneath will be orange. This seems more common in the Aa ee genotypes. 3) The broken sire to this litter is a possible source of at- ... easy to mistake exact color/pattern on brokens. 4) Given her father is tort, Sarah should be Aa - and NOT the source of the otter gene. Possible she is Aat (orange carrying otter) - but only if HER sire is actually a tort-otter and not a tort. 5) Sarah could be tort-otter (ata) if her mother was Aat. Do you know if her base color is black, blue, chocolate or lilac? I don't think you would mistake a black-based orange for a black-based tort otter, but on a chocolate based orange or dilute the shading could be mistaken for smut. I don't think this is likely if she is a nice clean orange though. What's behind Sarah's mother? You noted no otters in the pedigree, but that can hide more than a couple generations if the mother has a mostly agouti pedigree. If the breeder hasn't been crossing with otters or selfs or torts, and not intensely linebreeding, that 'at' gene could easily hide for many generations. Aat x AA -> 50% Aat, 50% AA ... repeat forever and the at will never show. Linebred, Aat x Aat will give 25% atat (tort otters) but the 'real odds' for even very tight linebreeding given that you choose at random not knowing which kits are AA and which Aat is actually only 1 in 16 (25% chance of accidentally getting 2 carriers multiplied by 25% chance of the double recessive when both parents are carriers). It is only when you cross to known torts or otters that the gene is likely to be revealed Aat x aa -> 50% Aa, 50% ata. If the pedigree on the mother's side was all from the same breeder and included a lot of torts, tort-otter doesn't seem likely. Edited by NeuBunny, Jan 8 2016, 03:09 PM.
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| volz83 | Jan 8 2016, 04:16 PM Post #5 |
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Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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So the sire to this litter is Luigi who is all tort with a butt load of tort behind him. Sarah's dam was tort, sire orange. Her mother has a lot of tort, a few orange and one chestnut (4th gen). Her sire was a Orange with mostly tort and a couple of oranges, one cream and one opal. A couple of the same animals were used twice in her pedigree but I wouldn't say heavily inline bred, just lightly. Sarah is for sure a black based Orange. And yes the breeder was very clear about staying away from Otters and has never used them in her line. The only rabbits I could see possibly carrying/hiding the otter gene is on the 4th generation- those rabbits are out of another rabbitry that I know did have otters. The colors of those said rabbits on her pedigree is a: tort, Opal and cream. However Sarah's parents are Orange x Tort so could she even be able to inherit the "at" gene at all? She should be: Aa like you stated correct? The inside of the kits ears are white while it's solid tort sibling is clearly colored. Other odd thing on the kit is the whole area including it's nose is pink. So you are right it could possibly be a booted broken. So would red have a white/pink belly, pink inside ears etc? I doubt it's that color but you never know. And yes it could still be a really smutty orange/red which I'm kind of hoping it is lol I'll let it grow out some more and do the wait and see! I'll post updated pictures of it on my other thread ![]() Edit Took the kit out and got a very good look at it and it's ears are indeed turning colored I am assuming this would then cross out anything otter? It's belly is still pink. Here are some pictures I just took of it with it's tort sibling.kit in question, you can really see the pink around the eyes here and under the face/chin/neck ![]() kit in question, belly ![]() kit in question, belly ![]() kit in question on the right ![]() kit in question on the right ![]() kit in question on the right, you can see how it has more pink around the mouth/nose area that the other kit who does have some but not as much. ![]() Edited by volz83, Jan 9 2016, 12:06 PM.
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| sidd-says-gimme | Jan 9 2016, 11:40 AM Post #6 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Can't see the most recent pics! I'm very interested to see what it's looking like now.
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| volz83 | Jan 9 2016, 11:57 AM Post #7 |
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Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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well shoot I do not know why it does that, let me try it again used photobucket this time so let me know if it worked! Edited by volz83, Jan 9 2016, 12:07 PM.
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| wildrabbits | Jan 9 2016, 09:07 PM Post #8 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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You always have great pics, thank you for sharing Volz =) |
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| volz83 | Jan 9 2016, 10:24 PM Post #9 |
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Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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Your welcome and thank you! |
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| NeuBunny | Jan 19 2016, 08:53 AM Post #10 |
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Genetics Geek!
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looks much more tort now... have to see what that tummy does as the fur comes in more. |
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| volz83 | Jan 19 2016, 02:54 PM Post #11 |
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Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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ok this kit has to be a smutty orange. I was thinking about it on the way to my orthodontist appointment lol So Sarah the orange dam was bred to Luigi, my tort buck. They had 5 kits, two are for sure broken orange along with a broken tort and a solid tort. Because they produced tort alone, that means Sarah has to be: Aa in order to even produce tort. Correct? So this means she can not carry "at" so this kit has to be a smutty orange. Here it is at 2 weeks old! ![]() ![]() ![]()
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| sidd-says-gimme | Jan 20 2016, 10:35 AM Post #12 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Love him! Yes, a smutty orange. |
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| volz83 | Jan 20 2016, 10:51 AM Post #13 |
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Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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Wohoo! Yes she is so cute! Most likely a girl ;D |
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| NeuBunny | Jan 20 2016, 12:43 PM Post #14 |
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Genetics Geek!
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Yes - definitely smutty orange. With that weird 'shading' on the flank that many report with Aa genotypes (which I attribute to tort modifiers rather than directly to Aa -- lol - not to bring up an old argument). |
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| volz83 | Jan 20 2016, 04:45 PM Post #15 |
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Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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That is interesting Neubunny! Their mom has the same shading on the flanks and that would make sense it was from the "a" gene. I wondered about that because some Oranges you do not see that side flank shading and now I'm wondering if that is because they are "AA" and not "Aa". |
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![]](http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c319/bunniluver/pip_rgt.png)





I am assuming this would then cross out anything otter? It's belly is still pink. Here are some pictures I just took of it with it's tort sibling.





I'm very interested to see what it's looking like now.




1:38 PM Jul 11