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| Banded hairs on self colored rabbit? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 8 2016, 04:53 PM (839 Views) | |
| Johanne | May 8 2016, 04:53 PM Post #1 |
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Does anyone know what these type of hairs are? They're banded, but not like typical agouti - and they are found on several self color rabbits. Close-up of the hairs On the back of the rabbit More of the back Full rabbit shown Her face, you can see the banded hairs there as well |
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| sidd-says-gimme | May 8 2016, 06:40 PM Post #2 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Strange looking hairs! Not sure what those are but the bunny color looks like smoke pearl or blue point. Hopefully someone else can help. |
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| Johanne | May 9 2016, 12:51 AM Post #3 |
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New to the Addiction
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The hairs are my main question, because I have them on several rabbits, not just her. I can't understand how it is even possible that self colored rabbits can have them. Experienced rabbit people I have talked have no clue either... But about her color - her parents are both blue magpies (they are also father and daughter, trying to figure out their colors). I am not convinced that they are sable magpies, or there's something really odd going on. I've been doing a lot of research and found out that there are more than just one chinchilla allele, so maybe there's the answer somewhere. So, because her parents, she should be non extension ee. And her color does NOT match sable point. She was 5 months in those pictures. Her undercolor is gray all the way, not white/light. And her points are not dark, just look at the ears in these newer pictures. Also notice that her shading is exactly like those torts she lives with. Only missing the yellow color on back. |
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| sidd-says-gimme | May 9 2016, 09:41 AM Post #4 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Perhaps she is a blue sallander. |
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| NeuBunny | May 9 2016, 04:11 PM Post #5 |
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Genetics Geek!
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In the initial picture, she really looks smoke pearl... which would be aaB-chl-ddE-... That isn't possible out of two magpies, if they are true magpie (A-B-chd-D-ej-) because the parents wouldn't have the 'E' gene needed for smoke pearl. aaB-chd-ddee (blue sallander) is possible if the parents BOTH are AaB-chd-Ddeje. But the odds come in at <3% even then. (lol - not impossible, I've gotten 3 ermines in a litter that had only a 3% chance of ermine). Sallander shading matches tort pattern very closely with the orange all replaced with white. And Siamese sables in satins are usually genetic sallander - modifiers darken it more than typically seen when clean tort lines throw a sallander in other breeds. The dilute gene itself does cause 'microbanding' -- under a high powered microscope all blues have itty bitty bands of alternating blue and white (each band < 0.1mm). Shaded is known for blurring the bands so possible it is the cause ... I've never actually looked closely at my daughters two smoke pearl martens to see whether they appear to have bands along the hairs, but I don't think so. In any case, substituting seal (chlchl) or chm- might give the darker color and possibly account for the odd banding. What do the parents look like? You note you don't think they are sable magpie, but might they be seal (chlchl) or torted (aa chd eje) variations? I've got a gene in my angora lines that I've been calling chl (consistent with what I've seen thrown in my barn - but I work mostly with chocolate that doesn't really shade anyway) but which I'm thinking might actually be chm based on what some others that I've sold kits too are seeing in the next generation - crosses to REW throwing kits that look more like seal than sable. So I've been reading and chm seems to be an oddly variable gene (subject to modifiers when you cross lines) that sometimes seems to give an effect like seal even when there is only a single copy. |
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| Johanne | May 9 2016, 05:26 PM Post #6 |
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New to the Addiction
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Now were talking! ![]() Parents are self color blue magpies, so you see sallander wouldn't be far fetched, if we can get that chinchilla there somewhere. As far as I know father is aaBb(c unknown)ddeje. He does not have ch or c, never given those colors with albino/c carrier does. Mother is aaB?(c unknown)ddeje. She carries albino for sure, so she has only one unknown allele. At first I thought he was a smoke pearl magpie, but there was something off. He has lots of kits who has albino allele (from mother), and all of them are dark, like seal. Black seal, or blue ones. None of them has ruby glow in the eyes. Kits with REW doe were dark, born dark, stayed dark. They were like from another planet compared to my sable kits from same kind of parents, the other being REW. True sables were born silvery blueish, and they changed, and they have ruby glow in their eyes you couldn't mistake of. He has none such kits, so they can't be sable. But is he a chinchilla, or that medium chinchilla? I try to find out. And also, he does have two unknown alleles. So are they same or not, another question. Anyway his daughters have given me chinchillas, with ch or c males. So I do wonder - are they what they look. Here's some photo links then: Her mother as a kit - she is the blue magpie The father (who is also the father of that mother - doe in that pairing was aaB?CcDdEe) The litter that original female in question was born in. She was like the darker tort looking kits, I'm not sure wich one though. Her mothers newest litter, where the father is REW. I don't still know if those are sable points or sallanders? |
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| Johanne | May 9 2016, 05:41 PM Post #7 |
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New to the Addiction
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I'll throw in a few more I think are important. Another female, Lady Gaga, who is full sibling to Thea, the mother of the original rabbit. As Thea, she has albino allele. Her color is also unknown to me, but she does not have stripes, so should be ee as the mystery girl there. There are photos of her too in this album of a litter with REW male (her son actually). Lady Gaga and her kits Video of Lady Gaga She also has this banded hairs, by the way. They all do - and interesting what you said about the dilutes - I can spot them mostly on blue ones only. But dark ones, like tortoise, there are some strange hair also. Can't quite see them but they are off color. But I have been wondering about how easy they are to spot on blues. And there are many, many of them. I have photos, but the time is actually 1.40 am here. ![]() Edit: Lady Gaga even looked like a sable point at one point when she was growing, she was pretty clean white from the body. The younger mystery girl never did, she has been darker all the way. So they might not be the same. Lady Gaga is still a mystery to me. She is now expecting for a REW male who is self color and carries non extension (the male in previous was agouti REW). Edited by Johanne, May 9 2016, 05:51 PM.
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| NeuBunny | May 10 2016, 08:02 AM Post #8 |
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Genetics Geek!
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MOST magpies (all good ones that are true black/blue) are chd-. |
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| NeuBunny | May 10 2016, 08:17 AM Post #9 |
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Genetics Geek!
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This description sounds like chd- or chm-. While chl- doesn't always cause the ruby glow, it does often enough that if you NEVER had a kit with ruby cast, I don't think you are dealing with that as the dominant. I would also have expected at least SOME of the kits with the REW to be lighter if chl were the buck's dominant. In the US, medium chin (chm) is considered common in satins and frequent wool breeds, but pretty rare outside that ... what breed are yours? IF what I'm dealing with in my lines is medium chin, I get the ruby cast more often than not ... then again, I'm also combining it with chocolate (all of mine at least carry b) so I'm not 100% sure it always does. It is also variable ... the agouti kit I got was very obviously sable chin (couldn't have passed for chin as it had obvious shading and was born that blue-brown shade, not black or even dark enough to be mistaken for seal. But the kits others are getting second generation in the line with a REW dam (so chmc) are variable ... looks like getting all 3 - sable and seal and REW kits in the same litter which isn't possible with a REW parent. It sounds like what you are getting is much more consistently dark, which suggests chd- (and probably chdchd). |
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| NeuBunny | May 10 2016, 08:22 AM Post #10 |
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Genetics Geek!
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The 'tort-like' kits here are definitely sallander. aa chd- ee. Basing that on how clear the color contrast is rather than the grey and white blending together and the lack of cream tones. |
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| NeuBunny | May 10 2016, 08:35 AM Post #11 |
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Genetics Geek!
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These all look sable-based to me - chlc. I don't see an obvious sable point though ... the lightest (other than REW) looks to me like a torted sable magpie ... aa chlc eje. Perhaps the kit in the very last picture might be sable point ... I can't see the flanks well enough to be sure. |
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| NeuBunny | May 10 2016, 08:50 AM Post #12 |
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Genetics Geek!
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To me, she looks like a darker smoke pearl. Possibly blue seal, but you said she has thrown rew, so that means she can't be chlchl, but has to be chlc (or chmc, but the chlc seems more likely). In my admittedly limited experience, seals tend to have stable color, while the smoke pearls shift as they grow (and often with each molt as adults). |
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| Johanne | May 10 2016, 04:59 PM Post #13 |
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Well today I went to look closely the black tort sister of Lady Gaga, and I remembered wrong. The same banded hairs are there also, not so striking as they are with dilute colors, but they still are there - with several bands. I really need to know what's with them, it's really bugging me... Maybe there is the answer somewhere why their colors look so off. But since we are discussing their colors more than those hairs, we need to go back to the very first litter. The father was that strange blue magpie (with two different or same? C locus alleles that we don't know), and their mother was a black doe, which is pretty confirmed to be aaB?CcDdEe. Three sisters: ![]() Lady Gaga on the left, Madonna on right, and Brittany on bottom Album of all the kits in that litter So Madonna was a clear black tort. Lady Gaga looked to me like a sallander, but people said to me she is blue sable point. And she grew up looking more like a sable point, until as adult, she is dark as she is. She attended a rabbit show where Swedish judge told me she's not sable point, she suggested sallander or blue tort. There was a blue tort in that litter also, and they were very different as kits. However, as adult they looked almost the same of the color, since the blue tort grew very very dark as well. Then there's Brittany. She grew up looking like black sable point, until as adult, she is also very very dark. Pictures of the three as adults: ![]() Madonna ![]() Brittany ![]() Lady Gaga (you see, she looks very different in every other picture )None of them has ruby glow in their eyes. Brittany had chinchilla colored babies with himalayan buck (albinos also, so she has c in there just like Lady Gaga). To me they did not look sable chins, but I don't know. Lady Gaga has a blue chinchilla colored kit in that last litter, which I already posted an album link. If they are sable points after all, there is something way different in sable points and sable points... Just look at their point colors, for instance. Shouldn't they be the darkest points in sable point? Brittany is black sable, and still she is very pale from the face, ears, tail etc. I understand there may be modifiers involved also. Just would like to know for sure what they are, eventually.
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| Johanne | May 10 2016, 05:14 PM Post #14 |
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Brittany's litter album was public after all so I'll link it here too (kits were born at my friend's house). The one dark kit had white hair all over, but he grew out of them later. |
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| Johanne | May 10 2016, 05:18 PM Post #15 |
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New to the Addiction
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Oh, I forgot - thought it was obvious from the pictures, but I'm dealing with standard rex here And their pedigrees seem to be having all the colors of the rainbow, so it doesn't help much.
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And their pedigrees seem to be having all the colors of the rainbow, so it doesn't help much.
1:38 PM Jul 11