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| Banded hairs on self colored rabbit? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: May 8 2016, 04:53 PM (838 Views) | |
| NeuBunny | May 11 2016, 03:38 PM Post #16 |
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Genetics Geek!
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First -- got to say that Lady Gaga and Brittany are both gorgeous rabbits! Brittany reminds me very much of the color of the (French angora) kits that threw me in the second generation of my line (folks breeding the rabbits they bought from me) and has me thinking either we have chm or some really strange modifiers ... not quite dark enough for seal (which would be impossible based on parents ... has to carry c) but much darker and more even than one expects from sable. Especially now that I see how high the rufus is on Madonna, I don't think there is any way that Lady Gaga is blue tort... blue torts should have gold/yellow pigments on the back and she has none of that at all. Based on the kit photos, I would consider her a smoke pearl (a light one) and Brittany a sable. In her latest adult photo, I would also have called her a smoke pearl (a dark one). lol - the variation with each coat is maddening! |
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| Johanne | May 12 2016, 04:46 PM Post #17 |
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New to the Addiction
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Thanks Back to the hairs, I took a video. I think it shows them ok, at least on my devices. Video, "blue" female Don't let the dark head fool you, she never had typical sable markings - she's molting & the old hair is sunburned (and mistreated by her sister as you can see, they live together). She is from a litter that was sired the same magpie buck (Mällo Tom-Tom) that is the father of Lady Gaga & co. These females (there are 2 of them) are, I think, extension (Ee) version of Lady Gaga (ee). Their mother is rew and none of the kits showed japanese brindling. Although, there were only 4 of them. Album of this litter That litter is perfect example what color I get with my "sables" paired with rew. No sable markings, no ruby eyes, dark ones are born dark (and not silvery blue like sables do). I don't even know what to think anymore with these hairs. Somebody has to know what they are.
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| Johanne | May 12 2016, 05:01 PM Post #18 |
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New to the Addiction
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Underside pics |
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| Johanne | May 12 2016, 05:02 PM Post #19 |
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New to the Addiction
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Same rabbits, different light (not the "brown" one though! )
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| Johanne | May 18 2016, 07:35 AM Post #20 |
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New to the Addiction
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Ok, so no-one to the rescue... is there an active Facebook color genetics page I haven't found? I've been reading this forum's genetics part throughly, and I'd like to know reh's opinion Is she still around?Also I'd like to ask her how medium chinchilla fits European gene codes - I understand now that dunkel chinchilla (ad) is positioned right after A and before achi. However, ad seems to be unknown and unrecognized, much like medium chinchilla (chm). But chm is positioned between chinchilla dark and chinchilla light. I don't understand why the difference. It's as if internationally it's the dark chinchilla that is correct chinchilla, and in Europe dark chinchilla is unknown and the lighter version achi is the "real chinchilla". |
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| NeuBunny | May 18 2016, 03:28 PM Post #21 |
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Genetics Geek!
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I belong to this one "Rabbit Color Genetics" but while there are lots of people there to help with the routine questions and guessing kit colors, I haven't seen much discussion of the truly unusual things. reh is awesome - she really knows the biochemistry behind the genes. I haven't seen her post anything in quite a while, but she never posted regularly to begin with, only checked in periodically and I think just in the genetics section. I think her email might be linked with the pm function ('members' tab at the top of the page) - you might try that to see if you get a faster response. I don't know the difference with the European breeds. In the US, chm is common only in Siamese sables in satin (and to a lesser extent minisatin and satin angora ... and crept over to the other wool breeds from the satin angoras, which often get crossed with French). US Siamese sables have the standard written just a bit differently than sables in other breeds which ended up favoring genetic sallander ... aaB-chd-D-ee or aaB-chm-D-ee. I think it has become more prevalent in the wool breeds just because it gives that slightly richer color which doesn't get quite as 'diluted' over the wool length (chm based end up looking more like a sable does in the short-coated breeds - while the chl go lighter just because the pigment is spread out over the longer hair) - those of us who breed for naturally colored fiber love rich color. Edited by NeuBunny, May 18 2016, 03:40 PM.
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| twr | May 20 2016, 02:25 AM Post #22 |
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POWITH!!
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I happened to be reading [1] for unrelated reasons and noticed that it talks about three chinchilla alleles, "dark", "light" and "pale" with "light" being the preferred allele for chinchillas because the "dark" allele is linked to marbled blue eyes. This ties up nicely with the order you give for the European gene codes: ad > achi > am. It also ties up with the ordering cchd > cchm > cchl in [2], which talks about cchd being linked to blue eyes. On the other hand it does not tie up with usage on rabbitcolors, which refers to European code ad as "dull" rather than "dark" and equates cchd to achi and cchm to ad. Interestingly, [2] adds that a separation of cchd from blue eyes "has now apparently been achieved" (as of 1943). I wonder if people lost track of the distinction between cchd and cchm when the cchd was separate from the blue eye effect. I have a pet theory that cchd and cchm are both fairly common in many chinchilla lines. [1] Marchlewski, T. (1934) — Two cases of reverse mutations in the colour factors of rabbits [2] Robinson, R. (1958) — Genetic Studies of the Rabbit --- I've just remembered something. Neubunny, didn't you mention once that you had a self chin (or similar) that showed impossible ticking on the face but later grew out of it? Terence? |
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| Johanne | May 20 2016, 04:26 PM Post #23 |
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New to the Addiction
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Interesting, thank you twr! The article I hadn't yet read, but the book I've tried to study chinchilla parts but it is a large book with plenty info and then some! I have to read it again to find that part about those eyes.Here in Finland they use the European system, but since I had to study on my own it was way more easy to find information in English, so I'm more familiar with that now. And since I started, I've found a LOT of things they don't even mention here. So do I understand correctly, that it is common knowledge that there are two chinchilla alleles, instead of just one? (+ the third, sable). Makes perfect sense to me know - in rex fur the dark chinchilla must be really dark. I think I have real genetic chinchillas in my stock while people kept saying to me that they must be sables. Because I paired them with REW and got seal looking kits.. I recently read the topic of NeuBunny's self chin also, and about those banded hairs. Actually I read it the first time long time ago, I've been visiting this forum every now and then through google when trying to figure out my weird colored self chinchillas and stuff. But as reh there said also, self color should not have banding. I kind of understand that, but then what makes the hairs to seem like banded? When it can't be shifting cold/warm temperatures either. I've been using a lot of time trying to find similar hairs, and I'm only able to find one type. It's cat hairs, from special type of agouti, ticked tabby. See here |
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| NeuBunny | May 21 2016, 06:22 AM Post #24 |
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Genetics Geek!
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lol - Terrence was TRULY weird - and the bunny that got me really interested in genetics because of that. Pretty sure he was a blue self chin -- dad (unpedigreed opal) went on to throw chins AND proved to carry non-extension (so possibly wideband with that). Dad also had a faded undercolor (eventually went white when he was older) and the line threw another opal that had white undercolor instead of slate, so I think the same modifiers that cause 'snowball blues' may also have been in play - though none of the actual blues in the line ever snowballed. Mom (black), who we thought carried chl (sable behind her), years later proved to carry ch. Born blue, when sold at 5 months old he was blue except for a weird patch on his nose that still showed chinchilla bands (may just have not molted that bit yet). But in between he went through some really bizarre color shifts including stages where his saddle had a wide white midband (and I was thinking shaded agouti), and a stage where his head was blue and his whole body silver-white (much more extreme than the normal 'dilution' you see on wool breeds). From what I can figure out his genotype was aaB(B)chdchddE(e) probably Ww and possibly + snowball modifiers (second B because we did some pretty intense linebreeding in the JWs -- down from his father, and his black brother -- and never saw chocolate ... and JW folks generally keep chocolate far away from all other colors). He did not show bands like yours, so I don't think that's related. Edited by NeuBunny, May 21 2016, 06:27 AM.
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| twr | May 28 2016, 05:18 PM Post #25 |
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POWITH!!
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Oh well. Thanks for the response. The discussion of chinchilla eye colour in Robinson starts at the very bottom of the page with printed page number 246. There is also a table on printed-page number 239, with colour descriptions for the various cchx combinations. I would not say it is common knowledge, or even completely certain. Several scientific papers talk about three chinchilla alleles but my impression is that most breeders assume there are only the two - chinchilla and sable. I do suspect that many breeders (at least many of those that post about weird colour on forums) are encountering both cchd and cchm in their chinchilla lines, but that is just my opinion and a minority opinion at that. Even some scientific papers ignore the cchd/cchm distinction, most notably (and annoyingly) in [3], the paper than sequenced a chinchilla allele. [3] Aigner, B. et al. (2000) — Tyrosinase gene variants in different rabbit strains That certainly sounds like cchm. I'd be wary of calling it "real" chinchilla though, I think a lot of people would regard cchd as "real" chinchilla. If you mean "What is the actual cause?" then I have no idea. If you mean "how is this even possible?" then there at least a few ways a previously unknown mutation could cause this (e.g. by modifying cAMP levels). Interesting, but note that if that site is accurate, then that type of ticking disappears on a self cat. I hope some of that helps. And finally, some random thoughts (feel free to ignore them): I'd be surprised if it turned out that cchd vs cchm was related to the banding effect. Did you know there is a third notation for the chinchilla alleles? (cch1/cch2/cch3 where cch3=cchd and cch1=cchl). It looks to me like the whiskers on the face have even more bands than the body fur. I wonder what the multi-banding would look like on a non-rexed rabbit. Also on a non-chinchilla rabbit (i.e. C_). Are the bands a similar size and spacing across all the rabbits that have this? In particular are the hair tips always the same (white?). I wonder what the band width equates to in terms of the length of time that the hair was growing. |
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