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Opinions on crossing smoke pearl and broken black mini lops?
Topic Started: Jul 13 2012, 02:54 PM (1,936 Views)
MrsSmithsRabbits
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Its summer here and very hot so we are not having litters again till fall. But I have a doe who lives inside. Its air conditioned inside. I also have a buck who lives inside. These two are by far my best sr mini lops. The buck is a smoke pearl. He has sired two litters Both with chestnut agoutis and threw chestnut agouti, and a steel in one litter, and a variety of colors in the other including two black chinchillas, a REW, a siamese sable, chestnut agouti and Blue. The first litter was from my friends doe and the second was an oops.

Anyway I have a broken black doe in the house. She has the most amazing body I have seen on one of my mini lops. Dixon(the buck) is the whole package. But for whatever reason I am balking at crossing broken black and Smoke pearl. Also she threw a lot of steels in her last litter when bred to a chinchilla buck. So I am wondering if she might actually be a steel.


Also what about Smoke pearl to Opal?? and how about to Gold tipped black steel?? Which would be the best cross color wise?
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sidd-says-gimme
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I believe that in ML, shaded agouti (and many other colors) are accepted. Black to smoke pearl should be okay, not sure how it would go if she's a steel though. I would give it a try since you think they would go well type-wise, and you should at least get some showable colors. We'll have to wait for the people that know genetics though. :lol:
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NeuBunny
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wow - a lot of questions!

Agouti won't normally hide steel (except sometimes EsEs), so the smoke pearl is almost certainly hiding a steel gene. He also has to be a REW carrier to have gotten REW kits. I don't THINK he can be a double steel (see doe below) because that would entirely wipe out the shading and he would just look blue.

aaB-chlcddEs- solid, so enen

Broken black doe - chin buck (agouti) also very unlikely to be hiding the steel so she's likely also a hidden steel. Likely she is just a black hiding steel (steel gene acts on the middle band, so it can completely hide in selfs, which have no middle band) - outside chance she is a true double steel - agouti with EsEs - which sometimes causes the whole midband to be pushed right off the coat instead of just to the tips.

aaB-C-D-Es- broken, so Enen.


Most likely kits = aaB-C-D-Es- = black hiding steel. kits are highly likely to be hiding steel (75%), but with both parents selfs (self hides steel) they won't express it. 50-50 solid black and broken black.

IF the doe carries dilute, then blue is equally likely. 25-25-25-25 black, blue, broken black, broken blue.

IF the doe carries shaded (Cchl) then you can get seals and shaded (half broken)
IF the doe carries himi (Cch) then you can get shaded and himi (half broken)
IF the doe carries REW (Cc) then you can get shaded and himi or REW (half broken)

IF she is actually the double steel (A-B-C-D-EsEs) then this is the perfect test cross. If you get agoutis or steels out of this cross, you will know for sure that she is double steel and hiding agouti. Very small chance (IF she is double steel AND hiding a lower C-series) of getting shaded-agoutis.

Other than the steel itself (which a lot of people hate having in selfs because it can pop out later when you breed to agoutis) and the small chance of a 'broken himi' (which can mess up the markings if a white patch falls on an ear or foot) I don't see anything in that cross that is troubling (well except for that outside chance she's the 'double steel'). If these are your two best by type, it's a good gamble on color.


Smoke pearl x opal -- I assume you mean the same smoke pearl above?

Opal = A-B-C-ddE-

As an agouti, that steel gene the shaded is carrying is going to pop out on a significant number of kits. Also going to get shaded agoutis - which for most breeds is an absolute DO NOT -- though I think mini lops were the exception to that? Exact possible color spectrum is going to depend a lot on what genes the opal is hiding (self, lower C-series, etc). They will all be blue-based colors.

Gold-tipped black steel = A-B-C-D-Es-. same caution on shaded agoutis. going to get some kits which get a double dose of steel -- EsEs -- which often LOOK like selfs when they are genetic agoutis. If the doe is carrying self, you aren't going to know which kits are true selfs and which are double steels. and the rest will depend on the other genes the doe is hiding.

Of these options, I would go for the broken black doe.

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Himadri Hollands
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Neubunny, why would being double steel have the affect of wiping out shading of a c(chl)c animal?
Laura Lyon
Himadri Hollands
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MrsSmithsRabbits
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The chestnut doe( N1) he bred was running loose. I never saw them mate. But he is the only one i have marked as having gotten out at that time. We don't often have escapes. The doe, though her sire(Alex) was agouti and dam(Ninja) broken agouti, her litter mates where martinized pointed whites, and agouti's. Another litter I had sired by her father on a Black(Eva) doe had Steels ( caused by doe I believe), and Sables ( Siamese Sable in most breeds) and blacks of course. So is it possible that the sable in her litter came from something her father carries?


Anyway I have decided to breed him to the broken black. The breeder suggested the same as you. Though not with the genetics information just from what her experience was with crossing certain colors. I did get a nice compliment over some pictures I sent her of Dixon ( the Broken smoke pearl buck in question).
She replied with , and I quote "WOW!!! Dixon is very handsome!!!! I might breed him to ....... EVERYTHING!!!! =)" in response to the email with the subject of Which doe should I breed him to?


That said. I am going to list the colors in the pedigrees of the broken smoke pearl buck and the broken black doe, if anyone has time to figure out what my chances of colors are based on that it would be awesome. I find its easier to spot colors, and to not make mistakes on what color one might be if you have some idea of what to expect before hand. I also included a few pictures of both of them, just because they are cute.

I didn't mention in my first post, but they are both brokens as you will see. I realize this gives me a chance for charlies. Especially since the doe is lightly spotted as it is. Honestly though I think it will be worth it. Charlies may not be able to be shown but they can be awesome brood does if they get the good qualities of both parents.

Here are the pedigrees

Broken smoke Pearl Buck Dixon aka: Schmidt's CT17

Father: Broken Sable Chinchilla Dam: Gold tipped black steel ( GTBS)

Grandfather
Fathers side:Brk Silver Tipped blue steel ( STBluS) Dam's Side: Silver Tipped black steel (STBS)
Grandmother
Fathers side: STBS Dam's side:Brk Chestnut Agouti

Great Grandfathers
Sires side:Brk Black Chinchilla Dams side : Brk Black
Chinchilla (doesn't say kind) Broken Seal
Great Grand Mothers
Sires side : GTBS Dams side: Black
Brk STBS Brk Blue steel (? what is this color?)



The Broken black doe Moppet ; Ak Whoel's KA384

Father : Sable Point Dam: Broken Black

Grandfather
Fathers side: Brk Sable Dam's Side:Chestnut agouti
Grand mother
Fathers side: Opal Dam's Side: Brk STBS

Great Grand Fathers:
Sires side: Brk Blue Dam's Side: GTBS
Black Chinchilla STBS

Great Grand Mothers :
Sires Side: Black Dam's side: Brk Chest. Agouti
Brk Opal Black


In additon in Moppets first litter with the chestnut agouti buck Schmidt's SM4 ( don't know whats in his pedigree off the top of my head, my guess is steels and agouti as that is mainly what they have) She had 6 silver tipped black and 1 silver tipped blue steels and 2 gold tipped blue steel.

And of course the Pictures! Love my Dixon!
Posted Image
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Thanks for all the help. If I didn't make the pedigree part clear let me know. I wasn't sure what the best way to do it was.



Edited by MrsSmithsRabbits, Jul 14 2012, 11:18 PM.
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NeuBunny
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Himadri Hollands
Jul 14 2012, 05:09 PM
Neubunny, why would being double steel have the affect of wiping out shading of a c(chl)c animal?
Here's how it was explained to me...

Think of the effect of the steel gene as pushing the midband to the tips of the hairs.

In a proper agouti-based steel the undercolor is 'stretched' to cover most of the hairshaft, the midband is pushed to the tip of the hair, and the top color is pushed right off the hair.

With two steel genes, the band gets pushed twice. Sometimes that gives you a very light tipping (only a little bit of the 'midband' is left at the tip), sometimes the midband is pushed all the way off the hair. In the latter case, all that is left on the hair is the undercolor, which gives a self appearance.

Now your 'normal' steel is actually the gold-tipped steel -- it's a genetic chestnut (C-) in which the tan midband is pushed to the tips. An actual steel-colored steel is a genetic chinchilla (chd-) in which the silver-white midband is pushed to the tips.

In a self, there is no mid-band to push around -- so self hides steel. In otters, the steel gene only has a midband to play with in the otter markings. Haven't seen one and there are no accepted steel otters, but I would guess that a 'steel otter' would look like a self except it would have tipping in the belly, eye circles and cheeks.

That brings us to shaded (chl). My recollection of how the shaded gene works is that it strips all the phaeomelanin (all midbands turn white) and it strips some of the melanin (primarily over the saddle). Its a bit tricky to understand just what the steel gene would do to that. Any of the phaeomelanin portions (midband pattern, now white) should get pushed by the steel gene -- one gene pushing it to the tips and two copies pushing it right off the coat. I'm not at all sure how it would affect the white potions of the coat that would have been melanin in the absence of chl. Maybe it would leave them alone because they aren't really 'midbands' but maybe it would push them too if its real action is to extend the undercoat (which is still slate on a smoke pearl). If it pushes them, then the double steel would push them twice and the white would fall off the coat leaving the entire hair the undercoat color (slate).
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NeuBunny
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re charlies -- broken cross broken = 25% chance. If your 'lightly marked' doe is herself a genetic charlie (and sometimes genetic charlies pass for broken) it jumps to 50%. But yes, Charlies can make great brood does - just best to cross them back to solids.

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NeuBunny
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MrsSmithsRabbits
Jul 14 2012, 11:15 PM
The chestnut doe( N1) he bred was running loose.
He = Dixon?? And I don't see a chestnut doe mentioned above? Or did I miss something?
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NeuBunny
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see where the N2 chestnut comes in now -- that would be the 'oops litter'?

So long as she is carrying REW, chin and self, there is no reason Dixon couldn't have been the father.
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NeuBunny
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Pedigrees -- very weird, scrambles on the main read-through, but when I click to quote them the spacing (tabs?) came out right and I could see the intended order.

re Dixon -- I don't see anything in the pedigree that surprises me or adds to (or conflicts with) what you told me about his kits. aaB-chlcddEs- Enen. Nothing chocolate, lilac or torted to make me wonder about or fill in those blanks. So probably safe to assume aaBBchlcddEsE Enen.

Moppet -- blue-steel kits tells me she's a dilute carrier (as well as steel - chestnut can't hide steel). Sable point parent (aaB-chl-D-ee) tells me she carries e - so no way she can be a double steel. The sable point parent also determines her hidden C-allele - which could therefore only be chl, ch or c (which means the silver tipped babies she threw got their chd gene from their father, not her -- as he was Cchd that would have masked her hidden C-allele in all the kits). So aaB-C-DdEse Enen. No chocolate in the background makes BB probable.

Kits: all aa, all BB, 50%C-, 25% chl?, 25% ?c (where the ? stands for the gene Moppet is carrying), 50%Dd 50% dd, 25% EsEs, 25% Ese, 25% EsE, 25% Ee. 25% charlie, 50% broken, 25% solid.

Ignoring the charlie, broken & solid for the moment...

25% black - most of them hiding steel...
aaBBC-DdEsEs = 6 black hiding double steel
aaBBC-DdEse = 6 black hiding steel
aaBBC-DdEsE = 6 black hiding steel
aaBBC-DdEe = 6 black

25% blue - most of them hiding steel
aaBBC-ddEsEs = 6 blue hiding double steel
aaBBC-ddEse = 6 blue hiding steel
aaBBC-ddEsE = 6 blue hiding steel
aaBBC-ddEe = 6 blue

12% sable (or seal if Moppet carries shaded). Steel carriers may look darker than normal sables, the double steel carriers may look darker or even seal/self.
aaBBchl?DdEsEs = 3 sable double steel (may look black)
aaBBchl?DdEse = 3 sable (steel carriers)
aaBBchl?DdEsE = 3 sable (steel carriers)
aaBBchl?DdEe = 3 sable

12% smoke pearl (or blue seal if Moppet carries shaded). Steel carriers may look darker than normal smoke pearls, the double steel carriers may look darker or even seal/self.
aaBBchl?ddEsEs = 3 smoke pearl (double steel)
aaBBchl?ddEse = 3 smoke pearl (steel carrier)
aaBBchl?ddEsE = 3 smoke pearl (steel carrier)
aaBBchl?ddEe = 3 smoke pearl

12% that REALLY depend on what Moppet is carrying for her C allele... all either sable, himi or REW. If sables, they may be darkened by the steel gene. Himi or REW shouldn't be affected by that.
aaBB?cDdEsEs = 3 sable, himi or REW, - double steel
aaBB?cDdEse = 3 sable, himi or REW, - carrying steel
aaBB?cDdEsE = 3 sable, himi or REW, - carrying steel
aaBB?cDdEe = 3 sable, himi or REW

12% the blue version that depend on what Moppet is carrying for her C allele ... smoke pearl, himi or REW. If smoke pearl, they may be darkened by the C allele as above.

aaBB?cddEsEs = 3 smoke pearl, blue himi or REW - double steel
aaBB?cddEse = 3 smoke pearl, blue himi or REW - steel carrier
aaBB?cddEsE = 3 smoke pearl, blue himi or REW - steel carrier
aaBB?cddEe = 3 smoke pearl, blue himi or REW
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reh
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Quote:
 
In a proper agouti-based steel the undercolor is 'stretched' to cover most of the hairshaft, the midband is pushed to the tip of the hair, and the top color is pushed right off the hair.
Pluck some hairs and look at them on a light background :-)
Steel has no "tipped" hairs. They have a mid band like agouti, but its narrower.
Its the same receptor/ligand thing as in japanese/yellow.
The receptor is over-active, so the agouti signal protein dont work as good as in E rabbits. Therefore the mid band is smaller or disappear in the under wool (or in ESES or ESe nearly overall).
Agouti ONLY causes this midband (which makes the white on belly, eye rings, ...) and only this midband can be influenced (narrowed) by steel. Steel cant influence lightenings caused by a c? gene, which encodes the tyrosinase (enzyme needed for pigment production and sometimes cold sensible).

Quote:
 
In otters, the steel gene only has a midband to play with in the otter markings. Haven't seen one and there are no accepted steel otters, but I would guess that a 'steel otter' would look like a self except it would have tipping in the belly, eye circles and cheeks.
http://www.rabbitcolors.info/int/en/entries/at_B_D_ES.E/1.html
www.rabbitcolors.info - Images and Gene Codes
www.satinangora.de
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MrsSmithsRabbits
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I just came back across this post. I will update it with the results of that litter and of the litter where I crossed Dixon to the Gold tipped black steel doe.

The Dixon X Moppet litter was born on 09-14-2012 Five born.

Two charlies ( one black, one smoke pearl or blue)

Three brokens
Broken black buck
Broken blue buck
and
Broken Silver tipped smoke pearl steel ( some say she is a sable steel but I think she looks more smoke pearl to me and since I can't seem to find any pictures that is what I am calling her) She is also the only doe from the litter.

The Dixon X Sparkles (GTBS) litter was born on 10-11-12 Nine born
Four broken GTBS
One broken Black
One broken Chestnut agouti
three GTBS


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NeuBunny
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Congrats!

Dixon aaBBchlcddEsE Enen
Moppet aaB-C-DdEse Enen

really surprised you got something that looked silver-tipped -- steel tipping should only show with the agouti gene (which isn't here). Sure she isn't 'just' a smoke pearl? Sounds beautiful in any case. --- incidentally, tells you Moppet is carrying ch or c.

On the second litter -- my guess is that the black is actually a genetic agouti with double steel (AaEsEs). Otherwise, Sparkles would have to be Aa to have a black baby -- but if she is Aa and Dixon is aa then I would have expected a 50-50 litter. One kit EsEs (black), one kit eses (chestnut), and the rest EsEs (steel) comes closer to the expected odds.
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MrsSmithsRabbits
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here are some pictures of the silver tipped sable steel doe

Posted Image

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NeuBunny
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:P
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