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| Help understanding the A E and W series genes; genetics questions. Did I do this right? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 17 2012, 12:51 PM (789 Views) | |
| MrsSmithsRabbits | Aug 17 2012, 12:51 PM Post #1 |
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Get a Life, Seriously
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I know if I just post my rabbits here and tell what is in their background you could easily tell me the answer, but I think it helps me to really understand it if I work through it myself. I am having a few problems understanding how I know which is which. So I will use my broken black doe Moppet as an example so far I have aa - because she is self. ( is that right?) Also I bred her to an Agouti and got no agouti kits. Don't know if that matters or not, but since it seems like I end up with lots of Agouti's even when I don't use them it seemed odd that their where none with a Chestnut agouti buck as the dad. B_ - because she is black I know she isn't a small b or she would be chocolate right? But I don't know if the second is a B or a little b until I breed her to a chocolate and don't get any chocolate kits? Do I have that right? C_ - because she is full color? Is that right? How do I determine what the rest of this one is? Dd - This one I am pretty sure of. She has a big D because she doesn't show as a dilute. She is black not blue. But her litter contained three blues ( Silver and gold tipped blue steels). So she has to carry the dilute gene. Am I right on this one? E_ - I have no clue on this one. She isn't steel but with an agouti buck she had 7 of 9 babies in her last litter where steels. Those two where blacks. So do I give her the steel gene? Es ? Or something else. What would it be if she was actually a black that wasn't throwing steels? VV - not vienna marked En - broken I am having problems understanding the W gene as well. Does it apply here? What would it be? I am going from the information in the Raising Better Rabbits and Cavies book that the ARBA publishes. Thanks in advance for explaining it to me yet again! |
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| NeuBunny | Aug 17 2012, 01:45 PM Post #2 |
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Genetics Geek!
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yes
yes, that is odd - especially if a lot of kits. If any kits are selfs, the chestnut dad must be a self carrier Aa. BUT the 50-50 is a chance for each kit -- sometimes you flip the coin and get all heads. yes. Or if she ever throws a chocolate when bred to anything, you know she has to carry chocolate. yes. only know for SURE if she ever throws a kit that is a different 'C-series' (chinchilla, seal/shaded, himi/pointed, REW). Test cross would be to a REW (cc) which should (50-50 chance for each kit) cause that hidden gene to show up. yes
Whoa. Steel gets tricky! Agouti cannot hide steel - so the agouti buck is not the source of the steel gene. So yes, she has to have a steel gene - at least one. Self hides steel (aaEs- = black). BUT this opens the door to the possibility that she's actually an agouti with a double dose of steel (A-EsEs is also usually black!). AND per above, STEEL kits are genetically agouti, (A-Es-). So what you said above about not getting any agouti kits is technically incorrect - you got agouti kits, they were just steeled agoutis! Silver-tipped steel kits are expressing a chinchilla gene (A-chd-Es-) that means that second 'C series' of your doe is NOT a C. It is either the chd or something recessive to it (chl, ch or c) [the buck could be the source of the chd and she the recessive or vice versa].
A black NOT throwing steels (with agouti) is usually E-. usually EE, though could hide e (if she ever threw a tort or red or had those in her background) or ej (harlequin - ditto). yes actually, the En is a single gene which just uses two letters as its symbol. So broken is Enen. probably not. W is 'wideband'. It's a secondary modifier gene. Good reds have ww -- which makes their undercoat the right white color (rather than slate) and reduces the chance of their fur getting black tipping ('smut'). Torts sometimes have w genes too - may help with smut there as well. On agoutis the ww genotype causes the width of the midband (the tan band) to double. This is going to cause agoutis to look 'too light'. MAY also give them too light undercoats - not positive on that. I don't know whether or not it has an effect on steels. Edited by NeuBunny, Aug 17 2012, 01:59 PM.
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| MrsSmithsRabbits | Aug 17 2012, 11:36 PM Post #3 |
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Get a Life, Seriously
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Now I am curious about this Self steel agouti thing
I am going to list her pedigree and the colors in it. Then I am going to list the dad of her litters pedigree and the colors in it. Hopefully that will help clear things up. I have kept back two does and a buck from this litter. Does this mean I can expect some crazy colors when it comes time to breed these guys? I did my best to pick the keepers based on everything but their color ( since almost everything is showable in Mini lops). The broken black Doe's Pedigree GG. Sire: Brk Blue GG. Dam: Black G.Sire:Sable KA384 Sire: Sable Point Doe GG. Sire: Black Chinchilla Broken Black G.Dam: Opal GG. Dam: Broken Opal GG.Sire: GTBS G.Sire: Black Chest. Agouti GG.Dam: Brk BlkChest agouti Dam: Broken Black GG. Sire: Brk STBS G. Dam: Brk Silver tipped black steel GG. Dam : Black The Bucks Pedigree. He is owned by the people we bought most of our stock from. GG. Sire: GTBS G. Sire: Chestnut Agouti GG. Dam: Brk Chest. Agouti Sire: Opal SM4 G. Dam: Brk Blk Chin GG. Sire: Chinchilla (same as Chin below) Buck GG. Dam: Brk Chocolate Chinchilla Chestnut Agouti GG. Sire: Orange G. Sire: Brk Fawn GG. Dam: Broken Chin Dam: Brk Black GG. Sire: Chinchilla ( same Chin as above) G. Dam: GTBS GG. Dam: broken GTBS The buck was born in March of 2010 and has won 8 legs, maybe 9 now. I am sure she would be willing to look up what other colors he is throwing if that helps any. Out of the 9 kits she had with this buck. We lost one at 3 days when it got out of the nestbox, it was blue (probably a silver or gold tipped blue). Of the remaining 8 we had 1 silver tipped blue steel; 1 gold tipped blue steel; and 6 silver tipped black steels. Three solids and six brokens. |
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| NeuBunny | Aug 19 2012, 08:44 AM Post #4 |
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Genetics Geek!
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My screen seems to mess up the formatting, so I'm not 100% sure I follow the pedigree, but let's step through it... The broken black doe has steel in her background and has thrown steel kits when bred to agouti. Her dam is a broken black and her sire is a sable point. Sable point is aaB-chl-D-ee. Can't hide steel, so that has to be coming from the broken black dam. That means (so far) she is aaB-C-D-Ese --- not that her hidden C-allele had to come from the sable point -- so chl, ch or c. Note that she is hiding e (sable point sire can only pass on an e). AaEse is steel, so she does NOT have agouti genes (no chance she is EsEs with a sable point sire). No chocolate in the pedigree, so unlikely she's a chocolate carrier (always possible). Has dilute in her background and has thrown blue kits, so she is aaB-C-DdEse (plus Enen for broken). Her second C-series gene is either chl (50%) or something recessive to it (ch or c). Looks like the sable point had a sable sire (which is the most likely source of his chl gene), but I'm not sure I follow which was HIS dam (which would be the source of the other option). The two grandams I see are an opal and a broken silver tipped black steel. I'm guessing the opal is the sable point's dam and the broken is the grandam to the broken. Opal is C and could hide either ch or c. The opal appears to have been out of a black chin and a broken opal -- no help there either as to what the hidden C is. Buck...I recall you said he was agouti -- chestnut? Chestnut = A-B-C-D-E- (with enen for solid) Sire Opal (A-B-C-ddE-) so he's A-B-C-DdE- (enen) Dam broken black which, if I'm reading this correctly, is out of a broken fawn (A-B-C-ddee) and a gold-tipped black steel (A-B-C-D-Es-). She can't be a double steel (has to get an e from the fawn) so she's a 'normal' self broken black - aa That mean the chestnut buck is a self carrier ... AaB-C-DdE- (enen) You got silver tipped steels out of his litter, and the doe can't have been the source of the chin gene, so he's the chin carrier (and he has lots of chin in his background, so no surprise there...) he's AaB-CchdDdE- He does have chocolate in his background - a broken chocolate chin GG Dam. Her offspring (his grandparent) therefore WAS a chocolate carrier. 50% chance his parent was a chocolate carrier and 25% chance he is. So at least a 12% chance that his kits are chocolate carriers. Small, but not to be ignored. Would be good to know if he has ever thrown chocolate (if so, he is a chocolate carrier and his kits have a 50% chance of also being carriers). He also has orange/fawn in his background, most recently the broken fawn grandsire. So his parent WAS a non-extension carrier and there is a 50% chance he is. So at least a 25% chance that his kits are carrying non-extension. Would be good to know if he has ever thrown non-extension (if so, he is a carrier and his kits have a 50% chance of also being carriers). Kits - silver tipped blue steel = AaB-chd-ddEs- - gold-tipped blue steel = AaB-C-ddEs- - silver-tipped black steel = AaB-chd-D-Es- The silver tipped kits all got the chin gene (chd) from their father. They are carrying the same recessive gene as their mother -- all carrying the same one, either chl, ch or c. The gold-tipped kit could have gotten its C gene from either parent -- which means its second C gene could be another C (from the opposite parent) or the chd from its father or the recessive hidden by its mother. All the steel kits got their Es gene from their mother (steep odds there!) which means they got their second E-series gene from their father -- at least a 25% chance of e (otherwise E) All the kits have at least a 12% chance of being chocolate carriers. With blue siblings, both parents are dilute carriers and the silver-tipped black steel kits have a 66% (2/3) chance of being dilute carriers. This one was tricky! (starting to hate steel - glad it's not an issue in any of my breeds) -- somebody else please check and make sure I don't have any huge mistakes. |
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| MrsSmithsRabbits | Aug 19 2012, 08:21 PM Post #5 |
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Get a Life, Seriously
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Wow I spent like a half hour typing that out so it would look like a pedigree and then it just shoved it all together. I will try this more simply The broken black doe's KA384 aka: Moppet( who I started this thread talking about) Sire : Sable point Dam: Broken Black The Sire Sable Points Sire: Sable and Dam: Opal The Dam broken blacks Sire: Black Chestnut agouti and Dam: Silver tipped black steel The G. G on the Sable points Sires side are Sire: Broken Blue Dam: Black The G.G. on the sable points Dams side are Sire: Black Chinchilla Dam : Broken Opal The G. G. on the broken blacks sires side are Sire: GTBS and dam: broken chestnut agouti The G. G on the broken blacks dams side are Sire: Broken Silver tipped black steel and dam: Black The Chestnut agouti buck I chose for her to be bred to. Owned by the breeder I got some of my other does and bucks from. Really nice buck. Has 8 legs. Sire: Opal Dam: Broken Black The Sire Opal's Sire: Chestnut agouti and Dam: BrkBlackChinchilla The Dam Broken Black's Sire:Broken Fawn and Dam: GT black Steel The G. G. on the Opal's Sires side are Sire: GTBS and Dam: Broken Chestnut agouti The G. G. on the Opals Dams side are Sire: Chinchilla and Dam: broken Chocolate Chinchilla The G. G. on the Broken Blacks Sires side are sire: Orange and Dam: Broken Chinchilla The G. G. on the broken blacks Dams side are Sire: Chinchilla and Dam: Broken GTBS You know I don't know that that makes it any clearer. But some of the places it moved the colors to last time where wrong. Some of the ones you had for the sire where for the dam and vice versa. Sorry. I didn't know it would rearrange things from the width of the reply screen. |
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| NeuBunny | Aug 20 2012, 12:41 PM Post #6 |
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Genetics Geek!
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Not the first -- let's try again...
sable point is aaB-chl-D-ee since he is ee, Moppet has to be Ese (NOT EsEs) Ese cannot hide agouti, so she is a self aa. Moppet so far = aaB-C-D-Ese (Enen because broken) She cannot have gotten the 'C' from her sable point sire -- that has to have come from her broken black dam. Her hidden C-series gene has to have come from her sable point sire - either the chl he is showing or HIS hidden C-series (which is either ch or c - himi or rew). There is nothing farther back in the pedigree to give a clue on that. She has several dilutes in her background - opal grandparent, broken opal GGparent (backing the opal), broken blue GG (separate from the opal), (and not sure whether GTBS = blue or black gold tipped steel - lol). The most recent of those is the opal grandparent, which means her sable point sire carried dilute and there is at least a 50% chance that she does as well. (at least 50% Dd). But as we separately know that she has thrown blue kits, we already know she is Dd. No chocolate, so LIKELY BB, but always possible to have chocolate hide for more than 3 generations so possibly Bb. Moppet = aaB-C-DdEse (Enen) likely carrying chl, possibly ch or c.
incidentally, the theory says that you can't get a broken out of two solids. either the chestnut or the silver-tipped-black-steel must have been broken - they both have a broken parent themselves, so that's likely. In any case, you know Moppet is broken, so it isn't going to impact what you know about her genes.
Chestnut = A-B-C-D-E- (enen) Chestnut cannot hide steel, so that's how we knew Moppet was the steel carrier.
opal sire means he carries dilute (Dd). He isn't steel, so his dam couldn't be a double steel, so she's a normal broken black, self aa. That mean he is a self carrier .... AaB-C-DdE- (enen)
The broken fawn grandsire means that the broken black dam was a non-extension carrier. Which means there is a 50-50 chance that he is a carrier as well. You got silver-tipped kits, so one of the parents had to carry the chinchilla (chd) gene. That couldn't have been Moppet (who got her hidden gene from her sable point sire) so the chestnut had to be the source of the chin gene. AaB-CchdDdE- (enen) (50% chance of carrying e) That just leaves the b to figure out...
He has one GGparent expressing chocolate, which means his broken chin grandparent was a chocolate carrier, his opal sire had a 50-50 chance of being a chocolate carrier, and he has a 25% chance of being a chocolate carrier. IF he has ever thrown a chocolate kit, then you know he's a carrier Bb - if not, it's still possible (both parents have to be carriers for the trait to show up). I think the end result was the same even with the couple of transpositions in the pedigree. So what I said before about the kits still holds. It does seem odd that you got all steel kits from this cross, with no regular agoutis or selfs. It's always a dice roll, but the odds just don't favor that for 8 kits (odds work out to about 1 in 65,000 chance of getting all 8 steel kits from this cross, assuming I've calculated the genes right from the pedigree). Not impossible, but enough to make me wonder. Wonder whether I've missed something (I don't routinely work with steel and it is definitely one of the tricky genes) and/or whether that sable point was really Moppet's father. If she were a hidden (double) steel (A-B-C-DdEsEs) all steel kits is exactly what I would expect. Somebody who know steel genetics please take a look! Edited by NeuBunny, Aug 20 2012, 12:57 PM.
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| Disney | Aug 20 2012, 01:49 PM Post #7 |
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Somebunny is a awfully chatty
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@Neubunny I don't know the Steel gene more than you do, actually i learned what i know through you. If it weren't for the fact that a Steel surprise kit showed in my litter, i wouldn't had bothered to look into this particular gene at all. But considering the high possibility that Steel gene often plays hide and seek, i like to wonder if the related Self (looking) rabbits might actually be a hidden steel themselves. By that i mean the aaE_ looking rabbits that are closely related to the Steel rabbit, there is a likely possibly that they just might be A_Es_ rather than plain Self. Steel hides when the agouti gene is absent, thus looking self.. and if that's not enough, it also hides when it's 'Esej' and 'Ese' on the E-series. It only appears Steel when it's A_EsE only, other than this combination the rabbit goes into hiding again (enough reason for me to resent this gene). So.. A_Esej = self looking hiding steel A_Ese = ^ same. A_EsE = Steel aaEsE = self hiding steel aaEsej and aaEse = are even trickier. Neubunny can you confirm this? And please correct me if i'm mistaking somewhere. I pointed this out because because i think any of the listed pedigreed rabbit might have a incorrect identification, since a lot of experienced breeders get confused by this gene (like me). This gene doesn't like to be watched passing through every generation, it likes to surprise and scare the innocence out of us. Is what i came to accept and therefor decided to avoid any Steel (carrying) rabbit in my herd from now on. This gene is a curse to me.. Edited by Disney, Aug 20 2012, 01:51 PM.
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| MrsSmithsRabbits | Aug 20 2012, 03:11 PM Post #8 |
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Get a Life, Seriously
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Actually she had 9 kits and 7 of them where steels ( one gold tipped blue and the rest silver tipped blue and black) the other two where broken black does. So they could be self steels too. One of those parents where broken I just forgot to write it down. The breeder always does one solid and one broken in every pairing. Well I am off to work! Thanks for the help! I am sure I will be back again as I work on my other rabbits genetics I am good with what I can see its trying to figure out the hidden ones that confuse me! edited to add: Thanks for explaining the gold vs silver tipping. It makes since now that the silver would be from the chinchilla gene. So if i breed the silver tipped black steel to my blue chin buck I should get chins and silver tipped black and blue steels right? Wish I had more solid and less broken rabbits!!!! But all the nice ones seem to be the brokens. Edited by MrsSmithsRabbits, Aug 20 2012, 03:13 PM.
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| NeuBunny | Aug 21 2012, 08:57 AM Post #9 |
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Genetics Geek!
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I thought A-Ese was also steel. If that can appear self, then that could entirely explain what is going on. From the pedigree and kits, Moppet is definitely Ese. From her pedigree, she could be AaEse. I feel more confident about the calculations knowing you had two self (broken black) kits. 2/9 is about right if both parents are Aa (theoretically giving 1/4 self) and not too terribly unlikely if one is aa (Moppet) and the other Aa. lol -- Keep selecting for type and be grateful that most colors are accepted in minilops! |
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| NeuBunny | Aug 21 2012, 09:04 AM Post #10 |
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Genetics Geek!
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STBS = A-B-chd-D-Es- Blue chin (squirrel) = A-B-chd-ddE- Yes to chin and silver-tipped black steel. Blue variants (blue chin and STBlueS) only if the STBS carries dilute (Dd). If both carry self (Aa) may also get black, blue, and self chins. May also throw kits that show those hidden C-alleles (e.g., hopefully REW, not martenized himis or shagoutis). |
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| MrsSmithsRabbits | Aug 22 2012, 06:53 PM Post #11 |
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Get a Life, Seriously
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That's why I love the Mini lops. It's the only breed I raise where I can have a rainbow of colors, and breed together based on type, keeping from the litters whatever is the best type. Rarely getting any unrecognized colors. I love the steels. The above doe. Moppet is Currently bred to my Broken smoke pearl buck Dixon. If she took she is due on the 4th of September. I have been warned about mixing steel and dixon but decided to go with type over color. I might have a half pet litter because of Color but I doubt it. I am so excited to see these babies! |
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| NeuBunny | Aug 23 2012, 03:27 PM Post #12 |
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Genetics Geek!
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Good luck! Let us know what you get and we will play the genetics game again! |
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| MrsSmithsRabbits | Sep 6 2012, 01:25 PM Post #13 |
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Get a Life, Seriously
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She kindled 5 broken babies on the 4th of September. Two look like charlies, but are a light color so they may have more markings then I can see at this time. All are light colored but one which I expect to be a steel but havn't really looked super good yet. Will update when I know more what they are. |
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| MrsSmithsRabbits | Sep 17 2012, 10:23 PM Post #14 |
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Get a Life, Seriously
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I don't know if anyone is still paying attention to this topic. But the results of the litter between My broken Smoke Pearl buck and my Broken black doe are as follows. At two weeks old it looks like we have two charlies ( one smoke pearl and one seal), Three brokens,( one seal, One smoke pearl and One smoke pearl steel or maybe Sable steel but looks more smoke pearl steel to me). I am not sure that this tells us anything we didn't already know, but maybe I am missing something. |
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| sidd-says-gimme | Sep 18 2012, 06:04 AM Post #15 |
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sidd says stay gold
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I don't have any genetic talk to contribute but I would love to see a picture of them. I love smoke pearls.
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I love smoke pearls.
9:40 AM Jul 11