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| Sable point questions | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Sep 26 2012, 06:12 AM (572 Views) | |
| sidd-says-gimme | Sep 26 2012, 06:12 AM Post #1 |
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sidd says stay gold
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I suddenly went from 0 sable point rabbits to 3 (2 buck babies, 1 adult doe). The doe has produced REW before. The two babies are out of tort parents. Could I get REW if I bred them together? |
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| NeuBunny | Sep 26 2012, 08:52 AM Post #2 |
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Genetics Geek!
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sable point = aaB-chl-D-ee you know the doe is chlc because she has produced REW. the bucks are either chlc (hiding REW) or chlch (hiding himi). look for either of those two (rew or himi) in the pedigree to help determine which. if you don't have the pedigree or neither himi nor REW shows up there, it could be either, but (depending on breed) the rew is more likely to be hiding in tort (rew being more common in most breeds and few knowledgeable breeders wanting to risk torted himis). Assuming the buck is also chlc, then yes, you have a 25% chance (per kit) of getting rew. But if the buck is chlch, then that 25% goes to torted himis (chc with aaee). |
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| sidd-says-gimme | Sep 27 2012, 05:28 PM Post #3 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Thanks for the info! ![]() I don't think that there's any REW/himi in the pedigrees. These are Hollands, so is it more likely for the buck to be carrying REW? And if I am able to get a REW out of those two, is there any way to figure out what may be hiding under the REW? |
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| TherapyBunnies | Sep 27 2012, 09:27 PM Post #4 |
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Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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It would be easier to give an educated guess if we had their pedigree colors. Ex: Dam - , Dam Sire - Dam Dam- , DGS- , DGD Sire- , Sire Dam- , Sire Sire , SGD- , SGS- |
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Cara Licensed Clinical Social Worker, Therapy Bunny Breeder, Chaplain. Lionheads are my focus & Giant Chinchilla is my son's. My daughter's focus is Mini Lops and she has couple of show / pet rabbits. | |
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| Himadri Hollands | Sep 27 2012, 10:16 PM Post #5 |
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POWITH!!
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If they have not been bred and been proven to carry either REW or PW, they could also be c(chl)c(chl)-- seal points actually. It is pretty common in Holland Lop lines to see seal points ID'd as sable points since, with only 4 points on color in the SOP for the breed, the typically darker/smuttier seal points are not docked enough to be unshowable, and are accepted and shown and bred right alongside the cleaner 'proper' sable points that carry either REW or PW. |
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Laura Lyon Himadri Hollands | |
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| sidd-says-gimme | Sep 28 2012, 05:58 AM Post #6 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Here's what is in the pedigree of the babies. Hope this makes sense. Dam - tort , Dam's Sire - tort (he's out of a tort and a fawn.. meaning a "smutty/poor-colored orange, not a dilute or chocolate orange), Dam's Dam - broken tort (she's out of two broken torts). Last row on the Gsire's side is torts and oranges. Last row on the Gdam's side is torts. Sire - tort , Sire's sire - tort (he's out of two torts), Sire's Dam - broken sable point (she's out of a tort and broken tort). Last row on the Gsire's side is torts and blue torta. Last row on the Gdam's side is more torts and blue torts. They could be seal points? I was thinking that they had to have two shaded parents (like two sable points) to be one of those. They seem to be very light in color. Could you explain that please? Here's a picture of one a bit ago. They're only kits. ![]()
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| NeuBunny | Sep 28 2012, 09:35 AM Post #7 |
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Genetics Geek!
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to be a seal point, both parents have to be shaded OR both parents have to at least carry shaded... Not real familiar with hollands, but I would think seal points would be darker. Sire is likely the chl carrier ... aaB-CchlD-ee (possibly Dd with those blue torts in the background) Nothing at all in the dam's pedigree to indicate what C gene she is hiding, is there? Holland folks -- which is more likely to be hiding in torts - ch or c? My guess would be the c (rew) because crossing a himi (ch) into oranges or torts would have a high probability of producing funky 'extended himi' babies -- a risk few breeders would take. A REW resulting from crossing 2 sable points will be genotype: aa--cc--ee = rew hiding tort. likely aaBBcc--ee (no chocolate in the lines). Likely aaBBccD-ee (no dilute on the dam's side, but dilute possible from the sire). Note that it WILL NOT be hiding/carrying sable point -- no chl gene! |
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| sidd-says-gimme | Sep 28 2012, 11:19 AM Post #8 |
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sidd says stay gold
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So only one parent has to carry chl to get sable point babies? I was thinking that it was like dilute and that both parents would have to carry. Tu's (the babies' dam) mom had a sable point baby before. I was thinking that they would be darker if they were seal points as well. |
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| NeuBunny | Sep 29 2012, 08:33 AM Post #9 |
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Genetics Geek!
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shadeds are different, the gene is do-dominant with itself -- chlchl is seal and chlch or chlc are the true shaded -- so yes, you want only one parent to have the shaded gene, and the other to have something recessive to it! |
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| sidd-says-gimme | Sep 29 2012, 09:12 AM Post #10 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Geeze, I didn't realize that. What would be the "something recessive to it"? No wonder I haven't messed with shadeds until now.. out of my understanding.
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| TherapyBunnies | Sep 29 2012, 01:12 PM Post #11 |
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Hey, look at you! You chatterbox you. Now you can request a new title! PM the Admin to do so
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Here is the odd part of it. Torts (C, full color gene) are considered shaded, but genetically they are not shaded (sable, chl). The non-extension (ee) gene is what causes their shaded look. Now to your question, What would be recessive to it (saying it is the Full Color (C) gene? On the C gene, everything is recessive to the C (full color). In order of dominant to most recessive, Chinchilla (chd), Sable (chl, the true shaded gene), Himi (ch) and REW (c). Chinchilla (chd) is only recessive to C (full color). Sable (chl) is recessive to C (Full Color) & chd (Chinchilla). Himi (ch) is recessive to Sable, Chin & Full Color. REW is recessive to all other C genes. So REW does not carry Full Color, Chin, Sable or Himi. REW brings out what the colored rabbit is carrying in the breeding. REW does carry the A,B,D,E genes. So it can carry Agouti, Tan & Self; Black & or Chocolate: Full Density (D) or Dilute (d) & Full Extension (E) or Non-extension (e). |
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Cara Licensed Clinical Social Worker, Therapy Bunny Breeder, Chaplain. Lionheads are my focus & Giant Chinchilla is my son's. My daughter's focus is Mini Lops and she has couple of show / pet rabbits. | |
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| carolnoel50 | Sep 30 2012, 06:20 AM Post #12 |
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New to the Addiction
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Am I right to assume a REW can also be a broken or a charley? |
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| NeuBunny | Sep 30 2012, 07:30 AM Post #13 |
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Genetics Geek!
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Sidd - the 'recessive to it' being 'recessive to shaded' -- only himi (ch) and rew (c) are recessive to shaded (chl) CarolNoel - yes REW's can be genetic broken and/or charlies -- just can't see the spots... Explanation... REW was first explained to me throwing a white blanket over the coat -- so you can't see any of the other genes underneath. I've never really liked that explanation as it doesn't explain the other C-series well at all and somehow implies that the c gene is making something extra when chemically it is failing to make something (color pigments). Instead, I think of the C-series genes as breaking the factory for making color -- the recipe for color (other color genes) are still intact - you just don't get any color because the factory is broken. With even 1 C gene, the factory works great. With even 1 dominant chin gene (chd), the factory for eumelanin (black/chocolate portions of the coat) work fine, but the phaeomelanin (red/tan) factory is broken. (even though the 'recipe' on the ABDE genes says it should be that color, it isn't because the factory is broken) With 2 'shaded' genes (chlchl) MOST of the eumelanin factory works but not quite right -- giving that 'faded/sepia' look to seals -- phaeomelanin factory still broken. With only 1 'shaded' gene (chl) a lot more of the eumelanin factory breaks down -- causing large portions of the coat to go paler - especially over the saddle. When you have none of the above and only 1-2 ch genes, the phaeomelanin factory is still broken and the eumelanin is almost completely out of commission -- works only at colder temperatures, such as found on the points and in the eyes. If all you have is 2 rew genes (cc) then the factory is out of commission altogether -- you get no pigment produced - not even in the eyes. Note that only C can produce phaeomelanin -- so if a rabbit has any red/tan color to it, it must be C-. Although also 'considered' shaded, torts are completely different genetically -- the E-series genes have to do with the balance of phaeomelanin versus eumelanin -- red/tan versus black/chocolate. In reds/torts all the factories are working -- they just are making different pigments. colored versus white not affected at all. Broken obviously does affect the balance of colored versus white -- and can be thought of as also a breakdown in the pigment factories. I think of it as 'throwing monkey wrenches' which break the factory wherever they hit. Genetic charlies (EnEn) produce twice as many monkey wrenches and so you have more white (less pigment). They don't actually break the C genes (instructions for making factories) - they just break some of the factories, a patch is either all colored or all white, not somewhere in between. |
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| sidd-says-gimme | Sep 30 2012, 08:27 AM Post #14 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Thanks for taking the time to type that out.. I have to bookmark this so I can read it a few more times. I still have a few questions (of course) if anyone wants to clear things up for me. So, my buck's dam is sable point - when a rabbit has a SP parent, do the babies always carry chl like with a dilute? If not, what are the chances of passing it on? Since my buck is probably the culprit, that means that Tu carries REW or Himi? Or is shaded included in that? |
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| Himadri Hollands | Oct 3 2012, 10:29 AM Post #15 |
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POWITH!!
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What was your doe bred to when she produced sable point before (color of sire and his parents/etc)? REW is much more common in Holland Lops than himi (Pointed White) but PW does exist in some lines. |
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Laura Lyon Himadri Hollands | |
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