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Broken HIMI ???; What do you think?
Topic Started: Dec 14 2012, 09:06 PM (1,724 Views)
babybluemom
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I am not a breeder. She is just a pet. She was pregnant when we got her. I just love the whole mystery of genetics. I wanted to share for fun.
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babybluemom
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So what do you guys think made her look the way she looks? What do you suppose her parents looked like?
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NeuBunny
Genetics Geek!
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She looks to me like a vienna marked himi. If you got a broken kit (truly broken, not just vienna marked) then she is likely also broken.

The himalayan (aka pointed) pattern is caused by a gene of the C series which restricts the color to the nose, ears, tail and feet. Himalayans do not have color around their eyes and their eyes are pink. The himalayan gene is temperature sensitive -- based on the temperatures at the time the rabbit is growing the fur (e.g., temperature during and immediately following a molt). Colder temperatures result in darker markings and warmer temperatures result in lighter markings. For the markings on a rabbit old enough to be having kits to have been invisible she has to have been somewhere REALLY warm during the previous molt. Since the chinchilla gene (chd) is also C-series and dominant over the himalayan gene, it is impossible to have a chinchilla himalayan -- chdch is chinchilla. Himalayans can carry the gene for albino (aka REW) which is the most recessive c-series gene (cc) -- chc is himalayan. (incidentally, agouti is a separate gene -A- so it is possible to have an agouti himi - normal himis are 'self' aa)


Vienna marks (small white marks) is the result of the vienna gene. White nose markings seem to be the most common pattern of vienna marks. Vv is vienna marked (or sometimes look perfectly normal and are vienna carriers), vv is blue eyed white. All the 'normal' bunnies out there are VV. With the v gene trying to turn the eyes blue, when it is mixed with the himi gene (ch) or the albino (REW) gene (c) which are making the eyes pink, the result is often a purple color.

Broken is a separate gene -- Enen is broken (10-50% color). EnEn is charlie (less than 10% color) and enen is solid (all colored). The charlie patterns doesn't usually restrict the color to the nose and ears the way the himalayan gene (ch) does. The most common Charlie pattern is to have colored circles around the eyes (as with the dwarf hotots) and a random spot or two.

It is possible for a rabbit to be all three (or two of three) -- himalayan, vienna-marked and/or broken/charlie.

However, given that she has had solid kits, she cannot be Charlie (if she were EnEn, all her kits would have at least one En gene and be broken). Whether she is EnenVv (broken AND vienna marked), EnenVV (broken) or enenVv (vienna marked) you would expect at least half her kits to have white markings. What are the color patterns of her 'broken' kits?

To your original question - what parents could have produced her? - lots of potential options. To get the vienna mark and purple eyes, one parent must have been a Blue-eyed white, a vienna-marked or a vienna-carrier. To get the pointed markings, (genotype chch or chc) one parent had to provide a ch gene (himi or a himi carrier) and the other parent also showing/carrying either himi or rew. But with those being largely recessive genes, they could have been hiding in other colors. If the goal were to reproduce her color, I'd go for himi (aka pointed) and BEW.
Edited by NeuBunny, Dec 17 2012, 02:27 PM.
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babybluemom
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Oh, how interesting! I did not know about how the eyes came about. I will try to get a picture of her kits up tomorrow. I had to have someone help me with pics yesterday because imgur wasn't cooperating with me. For now I will describe the broken kit that I have a pic of. She is more than half white. She has a very symmetrical black butterfly with a white nose. Her ears are black, black around eyes. She has what looks like a "twister" shape going down her back. She has lots of black smallish spots on her head and back. Everything else is white. She looks more like a lion head than her mom does. She pretty much looks like every broken I have ever seen. She is now the class pet for my daughter's third grade classroom. The other two broken kits looked the same.
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Himadri Hollands
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Agouti Himis will "look" chinchilla-marked on their points, because the c(ch) gene for Himi removes all yellow pigment, meaning the agouti markings and ticking will be white rather than orange, brown or fawn.

However from picture #3 you posted, she does not look like she is agouti, as I cannot see any ear lacing at all.

Sometimes aa (self) himis will have lighter, ticked, marbled, or frosted looking points, depending on other genetic factors they might have (carrying REW or being ee for example) or being in warmer temperatures (the markings on himis are temperature-sensitive and are paler after exposure to warmer weather) or being ready for or in a molt.

It sounds like she could be EN broken, from your description of her broken kit, and from the fact that she is without points on her feet-- however not knowing what she was mated to does not rule out the possibility that her mate was EN broken, and she herself is vienna-marked-- however I have seen EN broken himis with that white blip on their nose (due to where the butterfly marking wanted to be/would have been had there been full pigment there to work with, rather than the limits of the himi nose marking), and having nothing to do with vienna whatsoever.

Here eyes look like the normal ruby/pink eyes of REWs and himis to me.
Edited by Himadri Hollands, Dec 18 2012, 11:08 AM.
Laura Lyon
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babybluemom
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Her mate was solid blue. I think she is the broken then? The pics didn't show the purple very well. Her eyes are very purple.
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NeuBunny
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If her mate was solid and you got definitely broken babies (which it definitely sounds like), then yes, she is broken (Enen).
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babybluemom
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So I guess my suspicions were right in the first place. Broken Himi. It's so weird how broken can be hidden like that. Does that work the same way that REW hides everything?
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Himadri Hollands
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Yes, it works almost exactly the same way.

REW is an albino-- they have other genes for color expression, but being 'cc' makes them albino, and thus removes all pigment from the rabbit, so the other genes have no pigment to 'work with' as far as expressing.

Himi is an 'incomplete albino'-- white body, red eyes-- only the points get to keep some color. Thus, whatever other genes the himi has can express on the points only, because thats the only place with available pigment left after the c(ch) removes everything else.
Laura Lyon
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babybluemom
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I wish my camera could get pics of her that weren't so blurry. I swear she vibrates constantly and my camera always blurs her. You can't see the ticking or possible agouti on her points. I asked about her point color in my other thread about what colors I will have. They are not black. They look both blue or chocolate to me. Ears are more blue but her nose looks agouti and more chocolate. This is her winter coat now so this is as dark as she gets. What do you suppose her point colors should be called?
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jodi
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fuzzypatch
Dec 14 2012, 11:08 PM
Ruby eyes with a purple cast could be the result of a BEWxREW cross (I know someone who tried this). I could be a trait passed down, but not too many would mess with that trait for obvious reasons; it's not showable, and probably never will be (unless people get really bored and want purple eyed rabbits: PEWs lol)

that doesn't happen with that cross. REW is absent of color and will not mess with the eye color of the BEW. Now shadeds have a ruby cast and will add a ruby cast to a
BEW and make the eyes look purple. I've also seen Himi/pointed white do the same thing to a BEW.
Jodi
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babybluemom
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jodi
Dec 24 2012, 11:54 AM
fuzzypatch
Dec 14 2012, 11:08 PM
Ruby eyes with a purple cast could be the result of a BEWxREW cross (I know someone who tried this). I could be a trait passed down, but not too many would mess with that trait for obvious reasons; it's not showable, and probably never will be (unless people get really bored and want purple eyed rabbits: PEWs lol)

that doesn't happen with that cross. REW is absent of color and will not mess with the eye color of the BEW. Now shadeds have a ruby cast and will add a ruby cast to a
BEW and make the eyes look purple. I've also seen Himi/pointed white do the same thing to a BEW.
Shaded you say? Like sable point maybe? I wonder if she came out of a broken sable point and a bew. I just read something about someone who bred to a broken sable point buck and got a kit with very faint (almost nonexistent) points. I didn't say what the doe was though. I know that sable point is supposed to have brown eyes but maybe?
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jodi
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yes sable point will have brown eyes with a ruby cast to them. so yes that would mess with BEW eye color.
Jodi
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Himadri Hollands
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Huh its interesting that himi crossed to BEW would mess with eye color, since himi ruby eyes are pink/red just like REW ruby eyes and himi is absence of color (except on points) as well. I would think that 'being' himi would simply make the animal ruby-eyed (just like being REW would), and the vienna gene would take off the rest of the body color, making the rabbit appear REW when it actually was a BEW/himi.
Edited by Himadri Hollands, Jan 5 2013, 09:06 AM.
Laura Lyon
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babybluemom
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So because of her purple eyes could she really have bew in her? Depending on how the light is shining and your angle her eyes do in fact sometimes look blue and sometimes ruby. Of-course most of the time the two colors blend and look very purple. I know she has to have broken. I know himi. The rest is a mystery. Also what type of points does she have? Not black. Ticked for sure and marbled ears. What would make her ears appear marbled?
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