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Agouti x chocolate, is this adviseable?
Topic Started: Feb 20 2013, 03:34 PM (343 Views)
redbunny
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When improving the quality of my budgies I'd always go for a wild type colour cross. Since agouti is the wild type colour for rabbits, I'm wondering if I can use this cross with a chocolate which has incredible colour and an amazing type. Trouble is I'm very short on decent does and I don't want to risk losing his type etc. I've a very nice agouti which could do the trick. However, now more than ever my mind is full of these modifiers etc. Any thoughts please?
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jodi
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It depends on the breed. For instance in Hollands chocolate chestnut is showable but in netherlands its not
Jodi
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NeuBunny
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I'd add that chestnut (wild type coloring) isn't any more or less likely to have good 'quality' than any other color. Rabbits have been bred for different colors for so long that the color genes aren't particularly linked to body type, health, or anything else. There are differences among the varieties within each breed in terms of which colors tend to have the best type/quality -- for example in angoras the whites USUALLY have the best type -- probably because for so long white was the most popular color (for dye-able wool production) so there were lots of breeders working on improving type within that variety. But still, evaluate the type and health directly rather than assuming the 'wild type' has the best quality.

Crossing a chestnut with a chocolate is also likely to lose your chocolate color for at least a generation (unless the chestnut carries both self and chocolate) -- and since chestnut can hide any other color genes you may end up introducing other color genes that make it difficult to get back to a pure chocolate line. Sounds like your chocolate has excellent color as well as type and I would hate to see you lose that.
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redbunny
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Thanks Jodi, they are NDs. I asked because of the chocolate and agouti and in my heart didn't feel it was right even though I'm desperate to keep this buck's type.
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redbunny
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Great detail, NeuBunny. Thank you. This chocolate oozes quality not just in depth of colour and type but the feel of his coat too and I really don't want to lose it. In my heart I didn't think agouti would do just that I have several does in that line. Can you suggest a colour?

Interesting re the wild type thing and how it is different in rabbits to birds.

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NeuBunny
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I don't know that it is really 'different for birds' so much as it is species/breed specific based on how long the particular color has been worked with and the overall size of the breeding population within that variety.

For example, I also raise chickens and in my breed (standard Wyandotte) the silver lace have the best consistent type and quality (ignoring the backyard & commercial crossbreds of course) -- because it is the original color for that breed and has been worked with for over 150 years to get the type to standard. Some of the other colors are genetically closer in color to wild jungle fowl (the wild type for all chickens) but because those varieties are less than 20 years old (maybe 40 generations from a crossbreed to bring in the color) their type is still more variable.

I don't do budgies -- but I think they are all still treated as one breed aren't they? So the base body type doesn't vary among the breeds. And the wild type is still the most popular/common color? In that case, it makes sense that wild type would be the best quality.

I guess what I'm saying is that for animals that are separated into breeds, the equivalent for 'best quality' isn't the 'wild type' (per the original wild ancestor) but the variety/color within the breed that has the largest sustained gene pool (the variety which is most popular, wins most often and likely the original color accepted for the breed). Unfortunately, I don't know what that would be for Netherland dwarfs.

For rabbit color projects, the best cross is always to stay within variety (chocolate to chocolate). The exception being if you really can't find an excellent typed animal within that variety (or everything you do find has exactly the same faults as yours). In that case, look for the best possible type (or complementary type) on a rabbit that differs by only one color gene while avoiding any genes that aren't compatible (that would produce unshowable colors) within your breed. Bringing in a more dominant gene means your first generation likely won't show your desired color and you will need to linebreed to get the color back. Bringing in a more recessive gene will give you the desired color right away, but means that gene could hide in your line for a long time (4+ generations).

Chocolate = aabbC-D-E-

Colors differing from chocolate by 1 gene =
Chocolate agouti A-bbC-D-E- (first generation kits will be mostly chocolate agouti - I think this is an unshowable color)
Chocolate otter at-bbC-D-E- (first generation kits will be mostly chocolate otter)
Black aaB-C-D-E- (first generation kits will be mostly black)
Lilac aabbC-ddE- (first generation kits will be mostly chocolate)
Chocolate tort aabbC-D-ee (first generation kits will be mostly chocolate)
Chocolate self chin - aabbchd-D-E- (probably not a good choice even if you could find one - self chins sometimes show as seals but for most breeds the chocolate versions even of seal aren't showable)
Chocolate sable aabbchl-D-E- (don't think these are showable either)
Pointed chocolate aabbch-D-E- (not sure whether these are accepted in NDs or not)
genetic chocolate REW aabbccD-E- (the issue is how to know for certain that the rabbit is really genetic chocolate unless both parents were chocolate)

Of these, my choice for preserving color intensity would be a black that also had an intense color.

Alternatively, go for the best type regardless of color. Most breeders seem to do this - except for disqualified colors, type is more important than color in most breeds.


Edited by NeuBunny, Feb 22 2013, 11:55 AM.
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redbunny
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Dear NeuBunny, wow what a superb post, thank you. This is quality, first hand information which I do lack here.
The budgie thing....if ever you want to out cross or preserve a rare colour, the advice was to go with the wild type. The green.

With the chocolate depth of colour and consistency of colour and my growing awareness of modifiers etc I didn't want to mess up. It took nearly two years to track this quality buck and I've not seen anything that catches my eye since. I have a lovely almost buck like black doe. I think I'll go with her and work the F1s back to the buck.

Thank you. I'll copy and paste your comment into my 'little' note book.
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NeuBunny
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B-) glad to help

good luck!
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