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Snuffles Vaccine?
Topic Started: Jun 1 2013, 09:08 AM (3,434 Views)
sidd-says-gimme
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sidd says stay gold
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Neat! :D
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BunnyRabbitPassion
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That's great news! Thanks for the update.
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Little Rascal's Rabbitry
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Way to Be!!!!
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Apparently, truly infected animals will have their symptoms back with a fury after 2 weeks... my doe is on day 20 with a dry nose and no sneezing... this is creeping me out! LOL I'm so used to this being incurable... Not saying it is yet but WOW!
Little Rascal's Rabbitry
Specializing in Black Banded Dwarf Hotots, and Holland Lops in Sable Point and Black Tort
http://rascalsrabbitry.weebly.com
http://www.littlerascalsrabbitry.blogspot.com
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BunnyRabbitPassion
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Little Rascal's Rabbitry
Jul 8 2013, 08:51 PM
Apparently, truly infected animals will have their symptoms back with a fury after 2 weeks...
That seems like a good way to determine if a rabbit was truly infected or not.
I have a questionable rabbit in quarantine right now. Her only symptom is a soft sneeze every once in a while, usually at night. She also will have a damp nose on occasion, but it's not thick, white, or sticky. It is hot here, so I can't say the wet nose is from the sneeze. I've watched her sneeze and checked her nose after, no discharge. Maybe I should vaccinate her and see if the symptoms come "back with a fury"...
Edited by BunnyRabbitPassion, Jul 9 2013, 12:56 AM.
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ZRabbits
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Glad to hear that your doe is doing well Little Rascal. I guess I would be a bit freaked out waiting to see if "something comes back with a fury". Boy do I know that all too well. This just doesn't sit right with me. I don't know what it is, can't put my finger on it. But something just isn't right. Now this vaccine might be used to find out if ANOTHER issue will occur? Way too early to take these chances. What if they have the vaccine wrong and somewhere down the line, something else mutates and then you really have a problem? Not that "Snuffles" is just a walk in the park. It's not. But this is not the way to find out about diseases. This sounds like an advertisement on television that says a drug is good but watch for what can happen and what can happen is worse than the issue it's trying to resolve. Looks like a crap shoot to me.

I really need to e-mail Bob Glass. To really find out about this vaccine. It's not the "SUPER" cure or a preventative if it's actually giving rabbits live viruses. Like a Flue shot in humans. But our immune system is much more superior to fight these types of issues. Rabbits immune system is not. And with human flue shots, the Doctors have no clue what flue strain this flue shot is fighting. And half the time their guess is wrong and it complicates someone's recovery.

Basically what I'm saying is I don't know. And if I don't know I don't do it. But I do search until I find out if it is right for me and mine.

Edited by ZRabbits, Jul 9 2013, 05:59 AM.
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NeuBunny
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Pasteurella is a bacteria, not a virus. And the vaccine is a 'dead' vaccine, not a live one.
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ZRabbits
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NeuBunny
Jul 9 2013, 07:27 AM
Pasteurella is a bacteria, not a virus. And the vaccine is a 'dead' vaccine, not a live one.
Thanks for the clarification of bacteria vs virus. To me both are a illness. Something to know about.

Also if it's a "dead' vaccine, how come a rabbit once injected, can have a "positive" result of pasturella? What's the percentages of "false positives" and "false negatives"? Is it just that they get the symptoms again? Or is it something else that evolved?

Still new and should be THOROUGHLY tested. But trend in "drug testing" seems to be release the new drug and then see. We have become guinea pigs. No offense but that's what it boils down to. Until I find out more information on this particular product, I will stay on the side lines.

Please don't misunderstand and think I'm just trying to change the question. But with these results, I have many questions.
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NeuBunny
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I've been trying to figure out how they 'test' for Pasteurella. If it is by culture, then being vaccinated should NOT result in a positive test. But if the test is for the protein (which you've just injected into your rabbit) or for antibodies (which your rabbit produces in response to exposure) then you would expect a positive. BUT, if that's the case, then any rabbit that has ever been exposed to the disease would also test positive, not just the ones who actually have the bacteria in their system.
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ZRabbits
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NeuBunny
Jul 10 2013, 04:24 AM
I've been trying to figure out how they 'test' for Pasteurella. If it is by culture, then being vaccinated should NOT result in a positive test. But if the test is for the protein (which you've just injected into your rabbit) or for antibodies (which your rabbit produces in response to exposure) then you would expect a positive. BUT, if that's the case, then any rabbit that has ever been exposed to the disease would also test positive, not just the ones who actually have the bacteria in their system.
That's what I feel too. What is the test based on. Like you said, protein, enzyme, can give you a false positive. But to me the vaccine appears to bring on Pateurella. Even with rabbits that have it dormant. It's just too early to say. Much more information is needed.
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NeuBunny
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What I'm finding interesting lurking on the vaccine group on Facebook is just how many people are using it as a treatment for rabbits that are already sick - and reporting success (=symptoms disappearing).

This is a definitely 'off-label' use as vaccines are for prevention, not treatment, and this one is no exception. There's absolutely nothing in the way this type of vaccine works that suggest it should in any way help a rabbit that is already infected - if anything it should make the rabbit worse as it's immune system is now fighting the 'dead' vaccine as well as the live infection, which in theory just overtaxes their already-stressed immune system. Yet what seems like significant numbers of people are reporting that sneezing and snot are disappearing within days after the first injection.
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ZRabbits
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NeuBunny
Jul 11 2013, 11:27 AM
What I'm finding interesting lurking on the vaccine group on Facebook is just how many people are using it as a treatment for rabbits that are already sick - and reporting success (=symptoms disappearing).

This is a definitely 'off-label' use as vaccines are for prevention, not treatment, and this one is no exception. There's absolutely nothing in the way this type of vaccine works that suggest it should in any way help a rabbit that is already infected - if anything it should make the rabbit worse as it's immune system is now fighting the 'dead' vaccine as well as the live infection, which in theory just overtaxes their already-stressed immune system. Yet what seems like significant numbers of people are reporting that sneezing and snot are disappearing within days after the first injection.
I'm now completely baffled. Is it a treatment or a preventive? So how are these rabbits doing after the injection. I know that the symptoms are gone in 2 days but do they return? And are these rabbits breeders, or just pets?

My husband has a question...Is this a bacterial virus? Antibiotics already can help clear up these symptoms, so why an injection to cure?

Thanks Neubunny for the update. Hope you keep us informed.
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NeuBunny
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Pasteurella multocida is a bacteria - NOT a virus. It is treatable with antibiotics, but not curable. The bacteria seems to be quite resistant to all the 'rabbit-safe' antibiotics and will only go dormant, not be eliminated. Rabbits that have 'recovered' from Pastuerella frequently develop symptoms again every time they are stressed.

That's the core issue with 'carriers' is rabbits that have had Pasteurella, been treated and 'recovered' almost always test positive for the disease (again, not sure just what that test is) and have been shown to (at least in some cases) be able to pass that disease to other rabbits. It is not clear to me (or possibly to anyone) whether they can pass the disease while asymptomatic or only during an outbreak (as people can catch chicken pox or herpes from an infected individual in the midst of an outbreak, but not while that virus is dormant).

Like many diseases, Pasteurella has multiple strains - which greatly complicates disease treatment/prevention as well as our understanding of how it works. And since we tend to label ALL rabbit respiratory illnesses as 'snuffles' (when probably there are lots of other viruses and bacteria as well as allergies which can cause similar symptoms) we are probably not really understanding the whole picture. Some rabbits die of snuffles in days, others hang on for months or even recover completely. That may be due to a difference in their immune systems, or it may be that they were infected with a different strain of the bacteria or even a totally unrelated illness with similar symptoms. If you haven't actually tested for the disease, we really don't know.

The vaccine is marketed as a PREVENTATIVE. All company messages have stated that it is NOT a cure for an already infected rabbit. The company seems to have done NO testing of the vaccine on previously affected rabbits (why would they?) and Bob Glass seems very interested in the these results people are reporting.

Reading back posts on the facebook forum ... I think what is happening is that folks who have one sick rabbit (or a few) are ordering the vaccine to protect the rest of their herd (who may or may not have already been exposed). Since they then have the vaccine on hand, they are inoculating the whole herd -- even the one(s) already sick (thinking 'it can't hurt'). Reports tend to run that the sick rabbits are recovering - at least temporarily (which of course is leading other folks desperate to save rabbits to try it on their sick bunnies). Recovery following vaccination truly makes no sense to me, but it is what is being reported. Within about 2 weeks (well before the required 30 day booster shot) most of these originally sick rabbits are developing symptoms (sneezing) again. A few are not. The questions I have in that case is whether what the rabbit really had was in fact Pasteurella (or something else that just had similar symptoms from which the rabbit would have recovered anyway) and if it was Pasteurella, whether the recovered rabbit is really cured or a carrier (would it test positive?)?

In that same period (2-3 weeks), many rabbits that hadn't been showing symptoms, but which had been exposed to the disease, are developing symptoms as well -- the vaccine is either (1) not working on the rabbits that had already been exposed (as expected, a vaccine only prevents the disease by teaching the animal's immune system to recognize it and mount a more rapid response -- if the rabbit had already been infected and just was still in the early stages, the vaccine won't help) or (2) actually bringing out symptoms in rabbits that were carriers for the disease.

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ZRabbits
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Thanks Neubunny, Excellent post. So basically its a true cluster for the rabbits. No one really knows what diseases rabbits get because the Vet Community along with others in the Rabbit community say everything is snuffles. That's like the education system. Only one way to teach a child which is wrong.

So basically I need to make sure that my kits are born with a very strong immune system. Because if there are many strains of bacteria causing sickness and it appears as though it has an ability to morph into stages. So it means the bacteria changes or matures. Interesting.

Are all rabbits born with this possibly? Or is it just a "contact" illness, like catching a cold? I'm sorry to put all these questions to you but since there is really no studies, just someone collecting data, it just appears as though they threw together, here it is, and go away. Creating more problems than resolving them.

This is a bit scary for me. If you purchase a bunny, is it the responsibility of the breeder to disclose that their herd has been onnoculated (sp?)?
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ZRabbits
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Another questions, and I'm so sorry to keep asking these questions, but who is the drug company that made this vaccine?
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NeuBunny
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Don't want to pose as an expert on this ... so everyone please understand I'm just filtering the readily available info through my biology training (I'm an ecologist, NOT a medical/vet expert) and passing along.

I don't think rabbits can be 'born' with it. But there are many bacteria (good and bad) that can be transmitted from mother to kit at birth. I honestly don't know whether this would be among them.

A mother rabbit also transfers antibodies to her kits via colostrum (first milk). So I would think that if mom had been exposed to the disease (recovered or asymptomatic carrier) or vaccinated the kits would be MORE likely to get good antibodies against the disease from mom.

I think the company name is Pan American Vet Labs, but not 100% sure on that. Bob Glass seems to be the individual who developed the vaccine for rabbits (I get the impression as part of a team that was co-developing vaccines for Pastuerella in a number of species).

A nice page with Bob's answers to FAQ can be found here...http://madhatterrabbits.files.wordpress.com/2013/05/bunnyvac-bob-glass-qa.pdf

One interesting note I found there ... his reference to immunized rabbits testing positive is specifically to a blood test - NOT to a culture. Any rabbit ever exposed to the disease will test positive to a blood test, even if they have completely recovered. I wonder if the difference I see as to the 'prevalence of Pastuerella' (with claims ranging from 'ubiquitous' through '80% of rabbits are carriers' to 'the lethal strain is fairly rare if proper sanitation is maintained') has to do with how the test is conducted. I can easily believe that a high percentage of rabbits have been exposed (and so would test positive to a blood test) which is not at all the same as testing positive to a culture test (for the presence of live organisms).

The page also has lots of good info on how the disease functions, including why it is resistant to treatment (lack of blood flow in the sinuses, where the bacteria tends to lurk) and what is really going on with carriers. Some of that may also explain why the vaccine appears to be helping 'treat' infected animals. It isn't exactly, it is just preventing the animal from 'reinfecting itself' from the last bacteria 'lingering' in the deep sinuses. From that perspective, it would help keep carriers from having active outbreaks, prevent the development of anti-biotic resistant strains, and might reduce the probability of a carrier infecting others (while the carrier does still have live bacteria living deep in it's sinuses, those won't build to a high enough population level to trigger mucous production - and bacteria riding in mucous droplets are the primary way this disease is spread). Flip side, short of a deep sinus swab and culture for live bacteria (which it is unlikely anyone would do on an otherwise healthy vaccinated rabbit) you really can't tell if a vaccinated rabbit (or any healthy rabbit for that matter) is carrying the live bacteria.


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