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Mysterious deaths; I'm at my wits end
Topic Started: Jul 6 2013, 08:55 PM (509 Views)
KJCPolish
New to the Addiction
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So, I have had an ongoing issue with my herd. I have a small herd of Polish and a fairly decent sized herd of rex. I only have 30 polish holes and 60 rex holes. Well starting back in march I have had babies and adults die. They are fine the night before, next day they are dead. Or they will be fine at feeding time and I will go out to do a late night baby check and they will have not touched their pellets and I look and they are hunched with diarrhea and dead the next day. There is never a TON of diarrhea and its runny but not watery. Nothing I can find causes death as quickly as they succumb.

I've lost babies, all the babies in a litter will die but the mom will be fine. Her successive litters will be fine. I have lost a 7 adults(5 months to 13 months) and 2 very old Rex to the same. No adult rex, just rex babies. The 7 adults that died were polish however. I've lost 4 polish litters and 3 rex litters. One baby after another will get it. Starting with the smallest and lastly the largest/healthiest in the litter dies.

My rabbits are all fed Kent show, fresh water daily, AC to keep it a constant summer temp. But this started in march before it got hot. They get a conditioning mix of calf manna, BOSS, and rolled oats. I have treated twice for coccidiosis since the mysterious deaths. I have done two courses of agrimycin(oxytetracycline). I have done a fecal analysis- no worms. We don't have any rabbit savvy vets in the area and the only option the one gave me was to send a body to purdue for a necropsy which will be about $350 I was told. I have the last one that died in the freezer, I am thinking of attempting a necropsy on my own but I am not sure how to go about it.

I am just completely baffled. The ONLY connection I can make is that 2 days after I started feeding BOSS the first baby died. So I stopped feeding BOSS to the litters thinking they couldn't handle it. Well they were still dying. So I've fed the conditioning mix on and off. Whatever this is seems like it might be stress related. When I shifted rabbits around to pressure wash cages that very night a litter came down with it.

I will generally go a few weeks in between deaths but this week I lost a 6 year old rex buck, and 2 adult polish. I really am at my wits end, does anyone have any clue what this might be? The rabbits are in separate parts of the barn. I even conducted an "experiment". I put some meat rex babies in pens where previous litters had gotten sick and died WITHOUT disinfecting the cages and those babies are growing fine. No trace of anything wrong with them. So while it affects every baby in the litter thats present it doesn't seem to affect babies that come in right after.
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ZRabbits
Love My Lions!
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There is a lot of things that can interfere with the digestive system with a small animal. It sound more like a virus. It could be the water? Did you use anything differently when spray washing the crates? A detergent of some sort. Did you spill anything in their area? There's a lot of things that could occur. I'm really sorry that you are experiencing these losses. Regarding necropsy, there are videos out there that can help you do this yourself. Or maybe someone here who raises rabbits and uses them as meat rabbits could help you. They do know the INSIDE of a rabbit. I unfortunately have never done one, or I would definitely let you know how it is done.

Hoping someone can give you some light into what's going on. I would think it very frustrating to figure out what is going on with your herd. You seem to have touch all concerns regarding food. And it's really good to know about your "experiment" regarding the crates not affected your new rex kits. It really sounds like some sort of virus that is hanging around and affects the first kits, but afterward other litters are not affect. Must build an immunity to it?

Just guessing. Just trying to help. Wishing you all the luck.
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sidd-says-gimme
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That's horrible, I'm so sorry for your losses. So stressful.

I'm thinking that your best bet is to do a necropsy on all of the bunnies you lose, as long as they are large enough. You can look online for the "norm" and what is suspicious. You can also take photos so that more experienced people may be able to help out. Not sure if anyone here would be able to, but I do know another forum with lots of meat breeders that may be able to give you an idea.
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NeuBunny
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have your water tested - especially if it is also your family's drinking water. The only person I know who had something similar to this happening (though they lost more older rabbits) discovered a problem with extremely high iron in their well water.
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ZRabbits
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NeuBunny
Jul 7 2013, 09:30 AM
have your water tested - especially if it is also your family's drinking water. The only person I know who had something similar to this happening (though they lost more older rabbits) discovered a problem with extremely high iron in their well water.
I was afraid to say "its the water". I'm known as the "Crazy Water Lady" here. I'm the one that proved there really isn't any naturally occurring uranium in South Jersey. But a lot of man made that turns to lead. I was told to hush up by elected officials and environmentalists. They thought the naturally occurring uranium was less scary to say. But hey, I'd rather be scared and know the truth, than live in a bubble and not know what's really happening. Still affects you living in that bubble.

We made sure we installed a full house reverse osmosis system. My son was about 3 months old, and my husband walks out with chlorine burns on his chest from just taking a shower. The experts here, ( I say that lightly) feel dowsing the water lines with chlorine to kill bacteria. Many problems with animals here as well. Sheep having copper problems. So why not rabbits. You should seen the face on the breeders we have been to when we ask for a bottle of their water. Why they ask. Well you gradually switch food with rabbits due to digestive issues, why not the water they are used to ingesting? The light bulb goes on.

I would definitely take Neubunny's advise and have your water tested. If you live in New Jersey, get a private company to test. The Big Water companies here do test, but they can also manipulate the numbers to make it look like all is OK. Actually water standards were changed to actually accept man made uranium, which the EPA said was toxic in the past. How else would their (State officials and Enviromentalists who looked over the full plan) plan to treat superfund sites by pumping them through the sewers to be dumped into the Delaware River, which by the way is the major water source of South Jersey, work if standards weren't stretched and things in the past that caused cancer won't hurt now if it's just a little?
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athomepets
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I"m tempted to say it's a quick acting entropathic illness.

Do you find it weather related at all? The weather can play a role in bunny health as well.
AT Home Pets

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ZRabbits
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I thought athomepets had an interesting opinion on this so I did a search. Very interesting article. There's been a lot of rain here so weather could be a factor.

Here's the article:

https://www.addl.purdue.edu/newsletters/2004/spring/rabbits.htm

It states studies are still underway on how this illness really affects rabbits. Different diagnosis can occur with this illness. Kind of like thinking every thing is "Snuffles". BTW, I'd look at the part about experimental drugs. It's under the "Stressor" on rabbits that may cause this illness. That could also throw off the diagnosis. If I'm reading it right. Sorry not a chemist. Hope others will read this and comment.

Hoping for the best for your herd.

ETA: To point to the "Stressor" reference point in the article.
Edited by ZRabbits, Jul 7 2013, 02:53 PM.
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KJCPolish
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Well tonight I found 2 more does dead. A jr doe of about 4.5 months and a sr doe about 8 months old. I did send a sample of my water to be tested. But I am seriously baffled. I have another baby that will be dead by morning also, its got the couple large pats of diarrhea. So I assume the littermate will go within the next week :( that is how it always progresses. I'm in indiana if that helps.

I did just do a necropsy on the jr doe that died, I can post pictures tomorrow. I wasn't sure what exactly I was supposed to be looking for but the stomach was full of mashed up partially digested pellets(which must have been from the feeding before, they never touch their food in the 12 or so hours before they die). The intestines were a gray-purple color with large splotches of blood red on the outside(more like large veiny patterned patches). In most of the large intestine was a watery pea green liquid. Though parts of the small intestine the outside was a lime green color. There was a part of the intestine that had several(maybe 7-8) somewhat hard pellets. Didn't look like poop pellets but it was dark green and fairly hard, easily broken though. They ranged in size from about 1/4 of an inch to maybe 1/2 inch long.

No liver spots that I saw, though I did notice on the under side of the skin(I skinned her back and belly first) it was all pink except near her belly it turned to a yellow-ish color(bruising?? from bloat maybe?)

I truly am baffled, and this is making me feel like selling out. I've lost half my polish herd and a couple promising rex litters.

The ONLY clinical signs are they don't finish the meal they got within the 12 hours they die, and they have several large clumps of diarrhea. Not super watery, more like cow pie texture. And within 12 hours BAM they are dead.
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KJCPolish
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I also want to say, I was trying to put a time line together and I noted the deaths started in a litter of mine 2 days after I started feeding BOSS(black oil sunflower seeds). I did get the BOSS from wal-mart but it didn't say it had any additives like bird-kote. I've given BOSS in with rolled oats and calf manna as a mix about 4 days a week since early march. But before that I was not using BOSS. I have since taken ALL the rabbits off of everything but pellets. Though I am thinking maybe add hay and no pellets twice a week? I don't know if its correlated to the BOSS but its the only thing thats changed in my routine in the last 2 years.

Another thing I want to note is, I've lost 9 adults. The two extremely old rex and the other 7 all Polish does under 9 months old. Some had been bred, some had been shown, some had never been out of the barn. Whatever it is seems to ONLY be affecting litters I still have housed together/not weaned or does under a year old. I've sold multiple rabbits in the last 6 months, some local. And NONE of those has died. So it seems like it has to be something I am doing
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ZRabbits
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After reading everything you posted (good for you with the time line, that's how I figure things out), I really think it's the BOSS. Sounds like your rabbits (older and young) are just having a hard time digesting it. Could be an older bag? Check the time it was packaged?

I would start with just hay for a bit. I know that is one of the recommendations from many seasoned breeders when a rabbit has a bout of diarehha (sp?). Cut back all pellets and just give hay until they start pooping better. And the oats are good too. I know I feed old fashion oats to my rabbits, which they love. That also helps their digestive system.

Don't give up and throw in the towel. We all try to find the best way to feed our rabbit a nutritional diet. Sometimes when we do something new, it could affect our rabbits. And BOSS is used by many breeders. It could just been a bad bag?

Please keep us updated. Best wishes sent that you and your rabbits.
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sidd-says-gimme
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Could it be feed? I know it's been going on for a while, but maybe there's an issue. What about hay? I would also be wary of the BOSS.
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athomepets
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Check out the BOSS. Do this by opening them up and taking a good look at the seed. The seed SHOULD be solid, not mushy and come out of the shell relatively cleanly.

BOSS is generally quite safe to feed to rabbits, and I find mine at least, will not eat any that have "turned". But if rabbits aren't used to it they might not know the difference.

With diarrhea the biggest problem is to keep them hydrated and active.
As odd as it sounds... making them swim in lukewarm water is often helpful. It gives them motivation to be active...SWIM your life depends on it. And it gives them water (they lick it off their fur as a natural course of being).

Feeding prickly lettuce can be a God-send if you have it around you. Something about this plant helps rabbits survive digestive issues. (I've been there done that with TONS of digestive issues and have finally bred it out of my herd -- as a regular occurrence anyways).

Could be a combination of the weather, the feed and just something nasty hitting your herd that was carried in. If you show you can carry nasty bugs back to your herd.
AT Home Pets

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ZRabbits
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Just wondering how things are going for you? Hoping all is well and no more mysterious deaths.
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Phil
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I just saw this thread and wanted to add my 2 cents worth, I'm also wondering about feed, what kind of a container do you keep your feed in ? any chance that mice or any other animals can contaminate it ? something else you can try is switching your pellets brand name for a while and see if it makes a difference, you never know if maybe the company had some weeds get into the there hay that they use for pellets, also do you have a mice/ rats /other rodents that are around because they can spread diseases and mice will climb into feed bowls, I'm not saying this is the answer its just some thing to think about
Edited by Phil, Jul 19 2013, 04:28 PM.
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ZRabbits
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Phil
Jul 19 2013, 04:24 PM
I just saw this thread and wanted to add my 2 cents worth, I'm also wondering about feed, what kind of a container do you keep your feed in ? any chance that mice or any other animals can contaminate it ? something else you can try is switching your pellets brand name for a while and see if it makes a difference, you never know if maybe the company had some weeds get into the there hay that they use for pellets, also do you have a mice/ rats /other rodents that are around because they can spread diseases and mice will climb into feed bowls, I'm not saying this is the answer its just some thing to think about
Definitely good "2 cents" Phil. Never thought of the container or of rodents. Just thought feed. Definitely something to think about. Mice/rodents getting in feed can spread havoc in your barn. And that's for any other animals in the barn, not just rabbits.

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