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| Breeding reds | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 4 2013, 03:32 PM (855 Views) | |
| redbunny | Aug 4 2013, 03:32 PM Post #1 |
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I'm trying to develop the intensity and carity of the red in my ND. I've read about the wide band and extension genes but wonder how to use the rufus modifiers since they appear to be more haphazard in that two deep reds mated together still produce oranges. Any advice would be helpful. Plus.....my strain of bunnies have suddenly acquired very rounded heads......
Edited by redbunny, Aug 4 2013, 03:35 PM.
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| redbunny | Aug 4 2013, 03:34 PM Post #2 |
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| sidd-says-gimme | Aug 4 2013, 06:13 PM Post #3 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Sorry, I can't help, but that bunny is SO cute!
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| ZRabbits | Aug 4 2013, 09:19 PM Post #4 |
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Love My Lions!
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I tried a search in "Nature's Trail" but got no results, so I did a search. Found this regarding rufus modifiers. Seems I need to know this too for Torts (yes considering my original plan again with Torts) http://www.barrowbunnies.com/therufusmodifier.html Talks about orange and red. Pretty good explanation. At the end of this article, they note the modifiers that affect red. http://www.debmark.com/rabbits/genetics.htm This article talks about raising reds http://jansgiants.blogspot.com/2005/06/genetics-of-reds-tans-and-wideband.html Hope some of this helps. But hope you get some input from those who really know genetics. Will be interested to hear about the rufus modifier. She is lovely. |
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| redbunny | Aug 5 2013, 04:22 AM Post #5 |
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Dear Zrabbits wow thank you for all of these links. I'll settle down with a coffee and read them. I started with a thrianta buck to an agouti doe and then took the line breed approach. So far, after 3 years, I have a group of red bunnies with small ears and type but there are now two issues. Firstly, the round face with big dark eyes which I actually like and so even though I couldn't show them they give me great pleasure.....and that's why I keep rabbits. Secondly, the thrianta's red glows.....its vibrant and I can't reproduce that on these bunnies. My bunnies are red but its mat. Re the tortoisehell, they have to be one if the most beautiful colours about. Interestingly my reds produce them in their litters. That should tell me about the original genetic make up of the founding parents years back. I need to sit down and work that out. |
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| ZRabbits | Aug 5 2013, 06:14 AM Post #6 |
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Love My Lions!
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Hope you find some interesting information in the links. I've read many breeders experiences about the frustration of getting the color "red" right. I've never seen thrianta in person, but have seen pics. Hoping to see some when I go to my first Show in September. Really can't wait to see all the rabbits in person. I fell in love with Neville's coloring. From the first time I saw his pic at 4 weeks. At the time I had no idea about what a "Tortoise" was, and thought I would go Marten with my show line, but I keep looking at Neville and really want to produce the "correct" tort, just like you do with your Red ND's. That's why I started the thread about finding out his genotype. Wishing you luck on finding your answers regarding the rufus modifier and your reds. Would love to hear what you find out. BTW, thought ND's were supposed to have round heads and big eyes? "Their popularity as pets stems from their babyish appearance." http://www.ask.com/wiki/Netherland_Dwarf?o=2801&qsrc=999 I guess it's different in showing? Sorry, don't know the SOP for ND's. But love the look and sweet disposition of my pet ND. |
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| redbunny | Aug 5 2013, 09:39 AM Post #7 |
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Hmmmm, maybe.....I'll have to get a better picture to show my point. Actually this brings us right back to the thread topic. I've attached a picture of one of my does. She has in my mind a beautiful boxy head and she has been successful on the show bench and had produced some wonderful boxy and cobby youngsters. I have line bred her to a true dwarf who is also very typy. Not a single peanut or max factor in sight which kinda knocks on the head the idea the notion that a single max factor gives the boxy head. My little max bunny has tiny parents, both dwarf but neither would I say we're boxy or typy I'd describe them as petite in the true sense. Oak here's the boxy head
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| NeuBunny | Aug 5 2013, 11:13 AM Post #8 |
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Genetics Geek!
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On the rufus...it's an additive multigenic system, not a single gene, which is what makes it difficult. I've yet to find a good article on exactly how it works in rabbits, but we worked with something similar in grad school using a 5 gene-pair model -- which should give you a sense of what you need to do and why you are hitting a dead end... Pretend 5 gene pairs control rufus factor (it's actually probably more than that). Each pair is a simple co-dominant where the + allele makes the bunny more red and the - allele more tan. Pair 1 can be ++ (red), -- (tan) or +- (in between). 5 pairs then can be ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ (reddest possible) -- -- -- -- -- (lightest possible) +- +- +- +- +- (in between) ++ ++ +- -- -- (also in between) or any other combination of pluses and minuses, some redder, some lighter, you just count the total number of plusses and the more you have, the redder the bunny. So let's say you start with a really red bunny (thrianta) which you hope is ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ and you cross that with your light bunny -- -- -- -- -- In the first generation, all your babies will be +- +- +- +- +- and so an intermediate color. Cross siblings and you get the full spectrum ... unfortunately in a bell curve with LOTS of intermediates that you can't tell apart (++ ++ +- -- -- looks the same as -- -- -+ ++ ++). With just 5 gene-pairs, only 1 in 1024 kits in this second generation will have the ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ genotype that you really want -- that's BEFORE you consider the type factors that are even more important. So you pick the reddest kits that fall within the type you need. Probably those kits have about 7 pluses (of the 10 you want). But you can't tell which genotype they are... if they happen to both have their minuses at the same gene-pair -- e.g., both are ++ ++ ++ +- -- ... then you will have fixed the pluses at some genes (e.g., the first pair will now always be ++ in subsequent breedings) but you've permanently lost the last pair (-- cross -- at that last pair will always give just -- and you no longer have any chance of getting back to all 10 plusses!). Note -- here's where it is entirely possible to pick two fairly dark red bunnies and get back the orange. If you cross ++ +- +- +- +- with -- +- +- ++ ++ You can easily get +- -- -- +- +- You have to keep culling those light babies from your program. So you linebreed to keep improving color (and type) until you hit a dead end. That's the point where all your rabbits are ++ ++ ++ ++ --. The only way to get your rabbits redder is to outcross to a line that has plusses in that last pair. You could go back to a thrianta that is likely ++ ++ ++ ++ ++ ... that will likely mess up your type all over again, but at least you are pretty sure you will get that last pair as +- in your first generation of kits. Or you can go to another line of red Netherland dwarfs -- taking the gamble that that one is -- ++ ++ ++ ++. That will make your first generation +- ++ ++ ++ +- ... but get you much higher odds (1 in 16) in your second generation (linebreed again) of getting all 10 pluses and the color you want. Selecting for multiple genes at once (and even though rufus appears as a single color, it really is multiple genes!) is the huge challenge of breeding. Even making your choices as best anyone can, we are still trying to beat those random odds to get that one-in-a-million combination! |
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| redbunny | Aug 5 2013, 11:40 AM Post #9 |
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Dear NeuBunny thank you for taking the time to put all this information down. I appreciate it and will copy and paste it to my log. I guess I've been a bit naive re the probabilities involved which isn't helped by my smallish number of red buns in my stud. I still have the original thrianta doe but kinda retired her as I didn't think I'd need her agin. As you say if I out cross to her again then it'll take an age to get the ND type back again. But I'll do it because the true red in an incredible colour. |
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| NeuBunny | Aug 6 2013, 11:17 AM Post #10 |
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Genetics Geek!
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I'm always amazed at how quickly those exponential probability numbers get huge. 5 genes with just two options on the alleles (+/-) gets you to over a thousand combinations. The basic color genes and common alleles -- A, at, a, B, b, C, chd, chl, ch, c, D, d, Es, E, ej, e, En and en get you to over 24,000 genotypes. Can't even guess how many gene-pairs go into type -- it's no wonder the 'perfect' show rabbit is a one-in-a-million combination. |
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| redbunny | Aug 6 2013, 03:07 PM Post #11 |
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I honestly never thought of it that way......just thought of the gene pairs and went from there. |
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| ZRabbits | Aug 6 2013, 09:15 PM Post #12 |
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Love My Lions!
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Knew there are lots of combinations and the "perfect show rabbit" is as illusive as finding a pot of gold or even a unicorn, lol, People see the same color differently. I've read many breeder rants on judges who they thought didn't know what "red" should be. Felt it should be richer, or darker or lighter, whatever, I'll stick to learning gene pairs and what gene pairs are actually good for torts, and do the best I can, lol. Thanks redbunny for the pic. Understand what you mean by "boxy" head. |
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| redbunny | Aug 7 2013, 04:20 AM Post #13 |
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Hi Zrabbits, you are absolutely correct re some judges and their perception of what is red and what isn't. If you look at the incredible coat of the thrianta or the wonderful New Zealand red that would be a great bench mark. However, a journey doesn't start and end at the destination, there comes a time when you're nearly there. An orange rabbit looks washed out to me yet at half way the red looks......red! |
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| ZRabbits | Aug 7 2013, 06:19 AM Post #14 |
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Love My Lions!
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I'm really looking forward to the shows in September and October. To actually see the colors in person. And seeing what a true tort looks like. I've seen pics a plenty in the "NALRC Mane Musing (newsletter of the club), but need to see it in person. Everybody has their favorite color and have read plenty of breeders state to really enjoy rabbit breeding its the journey to getting as close to that favorite color as possible. Though Black Tort is the COD being presented for Lionheads, I'm leaning to Blue at first, because of Neville my phenotype Blue Tort. But Lilac to me is unique. Plus love my Chocolate Solid kits and would love to see Chocolate torts. I could even eventually do all color torts. Never know. |
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| redbunny | Aug 7 2013, 11:59 AM Post #15 |
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When you see them, your mouth will drop open in awe. It's an incredible feeling. |
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