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Breeding reds
Topic Started: Aug 4 2013, 03:32 PM (857 Views)
ZRabbits
Love My Lions!
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redbunny
Aug 7 2013, 11:59 AM
When you see them, your mouth will drop open in awe. It's an incredible feeling.
Can't wait! Looking forward tremendously to this experience. Not just colors but all different breeds. I'm just "HOOKED ON BUNNIES". There is no cure nor am I looking for one, lol.

Will take lots of pics, but will ask permission first. Only being courteous. Hope to meet some breeders that will talk to me or beginners who I can enjoy talking about how excited show rabbits can be. More so, hopefully 4H will have some children there. Hoping to reach out to that group too.
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NeuBunny
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whether affiliated with 4H or not, I can practically guarantee you that there will be kids there. At most ARBA shows, the youth breeders outnumber the adults (most ARBA shows are actually dual shows, youth and open, running simultaneously). Not all ARBA youth members are 4H members and vice versa. One of the reasons I love this is because it is such a family-friendly hobby.
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whoalookitsme
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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I am going to continue following this thread for my tans. Man it's hard to get that shade I agree and we have to get it all the way through the tail.
Raising Show Quality Tans, Polish, and Himalayans in Houston, Texas
Owen's bunnies
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redbunny
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Hi Owen's bunnies, I had all these big ideas re putting unusual and beautiful colours found on the large breeds on to the ND. I looked at the genetics of it and thought yep I can do that, line breed and do the fraction work. And so to the red and the beautiful thrianta..... It's been a few years now and I'm happy with what's happening but I'm not sure it's gonna achieve what I want....ever. That sounds negative but the thrianta must have something else in their mark up which makes that red glow.

So when I saw my first tans I thought....I want that colour on my ND....I'm know people are doing this but it's out of my league.....for now! The red on the tan buns has real depth like the thrianta....

I have read the articles by breeders of the Dutch rabbit in the USA who are putting the thrianta's red on the Dutch. Sure progress has been made getting the correct type for one but also the depth of red but it still doesn't glow.

Your comment re getting the colour into the tail is a little reminder that even the pure tans are still being developed. It would be good to see some pictures of yours and to hear any comments re the rufus factors and gene modifiers etc.
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redbunny
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Hi Owen's bunnys I just looked at your website.....the colour on your tans is wonderful. I just gotta figure a way of importing buns from the States.....I'm in Houston a couple of times a year....Pasadena :)
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whoalookitsme
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I have a couple of belly shots but man it is so hard to get that color and definitely alot of the tans are still working on it! The best luck I have had is with my dilutes. The blues that I've been raising have gorgeous tan factor and it goes all the way to the tail. The buck I have been using is a blue but everything in his background is black. He has been the most influential on my herd because of the tan he throws on my blues. But it's so weird because the blacks aren't as deep as the blues that come out of him. Getting that red glow is so tough!! I dont know how to explain all the genetics between modifiers and such so I am no help there. I need to do some research definitely on modifiers. Heres some pics of my guys. When looking at them you kind of have to ignore the knees. The hair is coming at you instead of laying flat so it will normally look lighter.

A doe I recently got. She has nice tan factor but fades in the groin and tail. This is what tan breeders have to deal with
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a younger black that had some of the best tan factor and it went to the tail! She ended up having white toenails so wasnt able to be used in a breeding program :( Her line had imported rabbits and overseas white toenails are not a DQ
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her posing:
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One of my awesome blue baby's belly :) I cant remember how young this one was but look at that evenness!! Thats what I'm looking to get in my blacks! Lighting is fluorescent so the tan factor isnt too correct
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And another blue baby
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Raising Show Quality Tans, Polish, and Himalayans in Houston, Texas
Owen's bunnies
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redbunny
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Thanks for this info and the pictures are great. That last one has a wonderful colour. Very interesting with the blue and depth of tan colouring, do you think there could be some gene linkage there or maybe some factor which works when blue and tan are together?

If we have the tan gene ta on our rabbits as n the martins why is it never anywhere net the red of the tan breed? It's always pale.
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sidd-says-gimme
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sidd says stay gold
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WOW!
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ZRabbits
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Thanks Sarah, Excellent pics and explanation regarding the coloring of tan underbelly. See what you are talking about.
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whoalookitsme
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I definitely thinks its genes because I have seen some blues who are super light and also ones that have frosting (this is white hairs in the tan coat). The thing I find so weird is that the blue buck that makes such awesome blues has nothing but black in his pedigree. Either someone's lying or they genetically carried blue all the way down until the right pairing but even then the tan factor on his blue babies was so much better than the tan on his black babies. Oh and I was looking back at the pics and that's so crazy how much more rufus the blue has when compared to one of my best blacks. This is why I have got so much research to do lol!
Raising Show Quality Tans, Polish, and Himalayans in Houston, Texas
Owen's bunnies
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NeuBunny
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whoalookitsme
Aug 12 2013, 08:09 AM
The thing I find so weird is that the blue buck that makes such awesome blues has nothing but black in his pedigree. Either someone's lying or they genetically carried blue all the way down until the right pairing
Recessive genes easily hide in a 3 generation pedigree. Keep in mind any of those rabbits may have had blue siblings.
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redbunny
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I put my lutino buck who looks very yellow (my word but it looks yellow:) ) to an agouti doe. As expected the youngsters were all agouti however one kit is a very clear red agouti which means the rufus modifiers must have come from the lutino.....who looks yellow.....
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twr
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redbunny
Aug 11 2013, 02:35 PM
Very interesting with the blue and depth of tan colouring, do you think there could be some gene linkage there or maybe some factor which works when blue and tan are together?

If we have the tan gene ta on our rabbits as n the martins why is it never anywhere net the red of the tan breed? It's always pale.
Just had a few thoughts on this.

First off it can't be linkage in the usual genetics meaning of the word. To be able to see linkage you would need a rabbit heterozygous for both of the linked traits, so in this case it would have to be Dd at the D locus and +- at whatever locus is responsible for the improved tail colouring. (I'm using + to represent improved tail colour and - for no improvement). In this case the magic buck is blue so it is homozygous at the D locus, ie dd. This buck cannot be responsible for a dilution-linked improvement in tail colour. This buck's offspring could still show a dilution-linked improvement in tail colour but only if the doe were responsible (and the doe would have to be Dd). If you want I can go into more detail why all this is the case.

Second, given the way dd dilution works it is plausible that it dilutes "lightened" colours such as pale belly colour less than it dilutes "full strength" colours, so both converge towards the same dilute colour. This would have to apply universally and it is not an effect I have seen described before, so this is rather speculative. Again I can provide more detail including a nice painting analogy if needed.

Third, with strange effects like this it is always worth keeping in mind the possibility it is just coincidence. It can take a surprisingly large number of offspring to reduce the probability of a coincidence to negligable levels.

and finally... The naming of the tan gene "at" is rather misleading. Giving two copies to an otherwise wild-type rabbit would just give it an otter pattern (black saddle). Red intensity would be unchanged and the belly etc would still be white. The red colour in the tan breed comes from other genes.
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redbunny
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twr
Aug 24 2013, 09:36 AM


and finally... The naming of the tan gene "at" is rather misleading. Giving two copies to an otherwise wild-type rabbit would just give it an otter pattern (black saddle). Red intensity would be unchanged and the belly etc would still be white. The red colour in the tan breed comes from other genes.
An excellent post, thank you twr.....the last sentence I find particularly interesting.

I'm thinking now about your comments and the genetic make up of my red bunnies some of which have white bellies and others orange......

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NeuBunny
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redbunny
Aug 25 2013, 05:25 AM
Quote:
 


The naming of the tan gene "at" is rather misleading.
The correct name is actually 'tan pattern'.
A-gene is known as the 'pattern gene' and has three alleles - self pattern, tan pattern and agouti pattern. The confusion is that we all shorten the proper name to just 'tan'. Not to mention everybody uses the term 'gene' when they really mean allele.

So tan pattern as in the PATTERN seen in tan rabbits - not the color.
Edited by NeuBunny, Aug 25 2013, 05:43 AM.
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