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| Breeding reds | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Aug 4 2013, 03:32 PM (856 Views) | |
| redbunny | Aug 25 2013, 11:42 AM Post #31 |
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NeuBunny....excellent point. I was focused on the colour. |
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| NeuBunny | Aug 26 2013, 06:12 AM Post #32 |
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Genetics Geek!
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lol - don't we all?! |
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| whoalookitsme | Aug 29 2013, 10:12 PM Post #33 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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That is so interesting! So You may think it is more the doe's fault? Even if the doe was a blue herself? What happened was I crossed the blue buck with a black doe (who now that I think about it has nicely colored babied to the tail so she very well may be Dd) and got very nice blue babies (the only black in the litter had much lighter overall tan factor than his siblings the blues). I crossed one of the blue babies back to her father and this created a very nice tail color also. So could it be assumed that the doe is the one responsible for the tail color? This is so interesting and can help me figure out which does to keep and/or get rid of. Theoretically could I cross does with that buck and if i get nice tail color keep them and if i dont get it then move on to the next? |
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Raising Show Quality Tans, Polish, and Himalayans in Houston, Texas Owen's bunnies | |
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| redbunny | Aug 30 2013, 04:16 AM Post #34 |
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A very intriguing comment. Might there be some evidence then of sex linkage? You have many useful observations. I think I'd need to write the genotypes and phenotypes down and go from there. |
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| twr | Aug 30 2013, 04:09 PM Post #35 |
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POWITH!!
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No time for a proper reply now, but I think you may have slightly misunderstood me on a couple of points, and you've provided new and unexpected information. I'll get back to this soon, but in the meantime if you could provide any more details on the various relationships including the rabbit's base colour (blue/black) and quality of belly/tail colour that might help. |
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| whoalookitsme | Aug 30 2013, 05:09 PM Post #36 |
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Hopelessly Addicted to the Fuzz
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I dont think its sex linkage but more the suggestion that the buck is a homo. rec. (dd). And that he couldnt be contributing to the improved tail color. Lol apologies for misunderstandings. I only have the background of a junior level genetics college course so I'm not too savvy. As far as what I have noticed in this specific cross that has produced awesome blues consistently. The sire is blue with 3gen of black and the Dam is black (parents are blue and black I'd have to look at the rest of her pedigree to see what else). I crossed them and the first living litter was 7. 6 blues and one black. All of the blues born had nice even tan factor and would take turns winning bob at shows. The black had pretty even tan but it was considerably lighter than other blacks that I have witnessed. I repeated this cross and out came 5 blue babies. I had people on a waiting list for this litter so I didn't get to see the adult tan factor but very promising tan factor and they were all even. So I kept one of the blue daughters from the first litter and bred her back to the sire. This line breeding created two blue babies that actually one of them is pictured (its the last picture). I sold the daughter from the first litter and kept the doe that is pictured to add to my breeding program and to be bred to a black hopefully. I did breed her to a lilac buck (in hopes of getting better eye circles) and two blue bucks were born that I have right now both have good evenness but one is lighter in tan factor than the other. This litter may be irrelevant though. This is so interesting. I hope it's helping you red bunny |
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Raising Show Quality Tans, Polish, and Himalayans in Houston, Texas Owen's bunnies | |
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| twr | Aug 31 2013, 04:34 PM Post #37 |
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POWITH!!
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In response to whoalookitsme I wrote:
The things I thought might be misunderstandings were:
I'm unclear whether your blues improved at some point or if you just started getting more consistent results but in either case I'm not sure there's much that can be deduced from your clarified breeding history with any certainty. You have quite a coincidence in getting 11/12 blue from blue x black. I don't think this has any significance, it just serves to illustrate that these things can happen. It does mean that with only one black from this cross, it is hard to say anything about any suggestion of linkage. I find it interesting that you seem to have seen evenness and depth of colour inherited as independent traits. It suggests that there is more involved in good tan colour than simply additive rufous modifiers. If this is the case, you might want to consider keeping a black with good evenness but less depth just to try to establish that trait in blacks so you can then combine it with depth (but don't do this just on my say so, I'm coming at this from a theoretical/academic point of view and my practical breeding experience is essentially nil). It sounds like the black doe contributed something significant. I'm guessing she provided rufous modifiers that matched those from your favoured blue buck and maybe also another modifier that promotes evenness. I expect it is more a matter of compatibility between the blue buck and black doe rather than one or other alone being responsible for the good results. I think consistent rufous (good or less good) is about getting a breeding pool that is homozygous for the same set of desirable modifiers and it sounds like you have this in the blue buck and his second generation offspring (and probably most if not all of the first generation). If you need it, the following post from Neubunny earlier in this thread covers rufous modifiers. Rufous I expect the loss of depth in the lilac cross is related to the lilac having fewer or different rufous modifiers compared to your consistent blue strain. I think the possibility of linkage or some other relationship between rufous (including any other modifiers affecting tail colour) and dilute is still open, with no strong evidence either way. I've not noticed anything that would imply sex linkage. Did you look at the base band on the belly at all? I hope the above was helpful, or at least interesting. |
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| redbunny | Jan 24 2016, 12:28 PM Post #38 |
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I'm still breeding the reds and in many ways have made a lot of progress re the colour although not of the same vibrant quality of the amazing Thriantas. I don't want a dull red I want that glowing red. Maybe I could use the satin gene but despite looking I can't find any. Any way, I now have clean reds with a consistent depth of colouring. The ears are getting shorter and two or three bunnies have nice square faces. Trouble is, I really need to focus on just this colour. How difficult is that? The reds are really a product of my love for these beautiful rabbits....I need to get on with my Hotots and silvers as I've not enough room these days. Here's a little girl. Her ears are actually ok although it doesn't show so here too well. That's mom.
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| sidd-says-gimme | Jan 24 2016, 05:00 PM Post #39 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Very nice progress! |
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| redbunny | Jan 25 2016, 10:42 AM Post #40 |
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Thank you sided-says-gimme. If you look at the youngster's coat it looks very fluffy and open. I don't have this with youngsters of other colours. Once she moults out, the coat will become sleek. Do you think maybe it's a sign of weakness or poor quality in some way? |
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| sidd-says-gimme | Jan 25 2016, 04:07 PM Post #41 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Hm... I notice that all baby coats seem to look much more fluffy and after they molt, they look sleek like you say. Perhaps it's more noticeable on the reds? Have you ever had any fuzzy/wooly bunnies from your reds? Sometimes being a wool carrier can make them have a fluffier/longer baby coat, but of course that isn't a clear indication. As long as they seem to be healthy, I wouldn't worry about it since they turn out looking normal after they molt.
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| NeuBunny | Jan 26 2016, 09:23 AM Post #42 |
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Genetics Geek!
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lol - with angoras, I hate baby coats. I've yet to see any decent correlation between baby coat and junior coat in mine (no predicting which will have good coats other than keeping them at least 3 months until that baby coat molts out). I'm finding even color intensity (e.g., rufus factor) can be pretty dramatically different. |
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| redbunny | Jan 26 2016, 10:43 AM Post #43 |
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NeuBunny I have found that coat type improves with age but colour doesn't necessarily. Some of the deep reds might fade to a darker orange on a new coat? I'm meant to be specialising in Hotot and silvers but love the red and they are taking up valuable hitch space. Any thoughts on why the Thrianta has such a glowing coat? The more rufous modifiers I put in my reds the darker, dare I say browner, they become and it's matt not gloss. Thankfully with this young girl's line I've a bright red especially with the sun on it but not the Thrianta red. Now funny you mention fluffy coats sidd-says-gimme because I have seen that even with the growing on and pre adult stock. I've also had reds which I thought at first were rexes but later grow the longer hairs to look normal coated. |
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| NeuBunny | Jan 27 2016, 10:21 AM Post #44 |
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Genetics Geek!
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well, baby coats on angoras are admittedly very different. The fiber is always finer diameter and there is very little guard hair in the baby coat ... which means they mat badly. But I can't tell at all based on the softness of the baby coat (which does vary considerably among the youngsters) which will get more/less guard hair in the junior and adult coats nor based on density of the baby coat which will have dense coats as adults. Most of the color in angoras is in the guard hair too - so color shift is pretty dramatic. I just decided one of my 'fawns' is a cream -- she was lighter as a kit in the first week (I suspect I see more guard hair tips when the coat is first starting), but from 2-10 weeks I couldn't tell her apart from her two fawn siblings by color -- only now that the baby coats are gone and the guard hairs from the junior coat are in longer can I see that she is dramatically lighter in color than the other two. I also see almost no variability in the length or time to first molt among a litter -- littermates seem to all go into that first molt simultaneously at about a 3 inch length -- even though my adults vary from a 4 inch mature coat to 8+ and some molt every 3 months like clockwork while others will hold a coat for 6 months. Frustrating when I have very specific ideas of what I want in coat type, but can't keep whole litters (can't keep up with grooming when I try) for 6 months to see what the coat really is. |
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| redbunny | Jan 27 2016, 01:09 PM Post #45 |
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NeuBunny I can't, won't, even begin to think about your work load re grooming. I've got two Persian cats which like getting in the hutches. Believe me, long hair and wood shavings are a bad mix. |
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