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Figuring out a Genotype from Pedigree
Topic Started: Aug 4 2013, 10:32 PM (158 Views)
ZRabbits
Love My Lions!
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Thanks Neubunny for all the work you put into this

http://minifluffsrabbitry.weebly.com/rabbit-color-genetics-102.html

So here goes, going to try Neville

Neville: Blue Tort aa B_ C_ dd ee

Neville's Sire: Lilac tort: aa bb C_ dd ee
His Sire: Chocolate Tort: aa bb C_ D_ ee
His Dam: Chocolate Point: aa bb chl_ D_ ee


Neville's Dam: Sable point: aa B_ chl_ D_ ee
Her Sire: Sable point: aa B_ chl_ D_ ee
Her Dam: Siamese Sable: aa B_ chl_ D_ E_


When you stated to look at the dilutes to fill in the blanks the chl just pops out at me. So I found what you wrote about single chl

"A self rabbit with only one copy of the chl allele (and no C or chd to compensate – so chlch or chlc) has a much harder time making enough pigment. These rabbits are called sables (or sometimes just shaded). The head, ears and feet come out the normal base color with a strong sepia tone, but the base color fades (shades) to a lighter color (often near white) over the back. Sables come in all base colors – black (Siamese sable), blue (smoke pearl), chocolate (chocolate sable) and lilac (lilac sable). Shaded acts pretty much the same when combined with the tan pattern allele, except that you add the silver-white marten markings to get sable martens. I haven’t been able to find much information about shaded agoutis other than the moniker ‘shagouti’ for the group and lots of cautions that you should never mix shaded alleles with agoutis! (apparently unshowable in any breed). If anyone knows more, please drop me a line! My expectation is that the rabbit would look like the base chinchilla with a sepia tone through the head and feet, but would shade to silver-white over the back."

So Neville could be?

aa Bb Cchl (or even chlchl) dd ee

Let me know if I'm close, lol Definitely would like to really learn how to do this. Think it would be an excellent tool for me. Thanks so much for sharing Neubunny. Will truly look forward to hearing your input.















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ZRabbits
Love My Lions!
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Luna's, I'm going to need help. Since broken is not even considered yet for Lion heads, nothing discussed in NALRC guidebook or newsletter, and I'm having problem understanding the Broken gene.

Luna: Broken Chocolate Would it be: aa bb C_ D_ En_?

Luna's Sire: Broken Chocolate Otter at_ bb C_ D_ En_?
His Sire: Black Otter at_ B_ C_ dd E_
His Dam: Broken Chocolate aa bb C_ D_ En_?

Luna's Dam: Chocolate Tort: aa bb C_ D_ ee
Her Sire: Chocolate: aa bb C_ D_ E_
Her Dam: Chocolate: aa bb C_ D_ E_


Definitely need help on this one. Just a note: Luna is NOT a Charlie. She has 4 solid kits. Two I think are chocolate selfs.

Thanks for any input! Would truly appreciate some guidance.



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NeuBunny
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ZRabbits
Aug 4 2013, 10:32 PM

So Neville could be?

aa Bb Cchl (or even chlchl) dd ee

Let me know if I'm close, lol Definitely would like to really learn how to do this. Think it would be an excellent tool for me. Thanks so much for sharing Neubunny. Will truly look forward to hearing your input.















1) Neville definitely carries the chocolate allele (b).
2) C-genes.
caveat -- chocolate point is dicey -- the genotype you have listed is what I would call (in angoras) a chocolate point pearl. lots of similar phenotypes possible with very different genotypes ... e.g., if it had red eyes, it was actually a chocolate pointed and would be aabbch-D-ee. But assuming you had that part right...

-- first, chlchl does appear possible genetically. However, the seal genotype (chlchl) won't express phaeomelanin (no orange color at all) so the saddle would go white and a bunny with genotype aabbchlchlD-ee would be a smoke pearl point. That's NOT Neville.
-- Therefore, he got the C allele from his sire and his 'hidden' allele from his dam. 50% chance he got the chl from his dam, which would make him Cchl. But the other 50% is that he got the gene she was hiding -- which could be either ch or c. We need more information - either about Neville's siblings, half-siblings from the same dam, or more generations back in the pedigree to figure out whether the hidden gene is ch or c.

Overall odds for his genotype based on current knowledge = aabb +
Cchl = 50%
Cch = 25%
Cc = 25%

+ ddee

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NeuBunny
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BTW - can one of the admins move this string into the genetics section?
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NeuBunny
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ZRabbits
Aug 4 2013, 11:19 PM
Luna's, I'm going to need help. Since broken is not even considered yet for Lion heads, nothing discussed in NALRC guidebook or newsletter, and I'm having problem understanding the Broken gene.

Luna: Broken Chocolate Would it be: aa bb C_ D_ En_?

Luna's Sire: Broken Chocolate Otter at_ bb C_ D_ En_?
His Sire: Black Otter at_ B_ C_ dd E_
His Dam: Broken Chocolate aa bb C_ D_ En_?

Luna's Dam: Chocolate Tort: aa bb C_ D_ ee
Her Sire: Chocolate: aa bb C_ D_ E_
Her Dam: Chocolate: aa bb C_ D_ E_


Definitely need help on this one. Just a note: Luna is NOT a Charlie. She has 4 solid kits. Two I think are chocolate selfs.

Thanks for any input! Would truly appreciate some guidance.



Despite starting with the letter E, En (English spotting) is not an E-allele - it's a separate gene. An unfortunate choice of symbols.

Broken chocolate (NOT charlie because of the solid chocolate kits) =
aabbC-D-E- Enen

Note that most pedigrees, even the ones that do include genotypes, don't bother writing the En/en part of the code because it is 'obvious' from the phenotype - charlie = EnEn, broken = Enen, and solid = enen. The exception would be if you have a genetic charlie with just enough color to 'pass' for a phenotypic broken -- or a genetic broken that has a bit too little color and is disqualified as a phenotypic charlie.

Luna's dam is a tort (ee) so she gave Luna an e-allele, which is hiding. Luna is Ee.

Luna's pedigree includes no dilutes, but that's a recessive that can hide. If she had even one great-grandparent that were dilute (dd) then she has a 25% chance of hiding d, even if it didn't show up anywhere in between. So we have to leave that second D-gene as a blank.

If I recall our previous conversation, Luna had two kits that were either red-eyed white or possibly pointed (red eyes, white, but some dark marks on the nose/points).

If either kit is a true REW (genotype cc), then Luna is carrying the c-allele and her genotype is Cc.
If the 'white' kits both have red eyes and some color on the points, they are genetic himi (chch or chc) and Luna had to give them either the ch-allele or the c-allele (with the other coming from their sire). So her second C-gene is either ch or c.

Overall I would write her genotype as

aabbC(ch/c)D_Ee Enen

Note: when I can narrow the hidden gene down to a couple of options, I like to write them in parentheses - e.g., using (ch/c) because I know C, chd, and chl are impossible. If all the options are possible (e.g., with the D or d) I just use a blank.








Edited by NeuBunny, Aug 5 2013, 10:24 AM.
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sidd-says-gimme
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sidd says stay gold
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Done ^_^
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ZRabbits
Love My Lions!
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NeuBunny
Aug 5 2013, 09:45 AM
ZRabbits
Aug 4 2013, 10:32 PM

So Neville could be?

aa Bb Cchl (or even chlchl) dd ee

Let me know if I'm close, lol Definitely would like to really learn how to do this. Think it would be an excellent tool for me. Thanks so much for sharing Neubunny. Will truly look forward to hearing your input.















1) Neville definitely carries the chocolate allele (b).
2) C-genes.
caveat -- chocolate point is dicey -- the genotype you have listed is what I would call (in angoras) a chocolate point pearl. lots of similar phenotypes possible with very different genotypes ... e.g., if it had red eyes, it was actually a chocolate pointed and would be aabbch-D-ee. But assuming you had that part right...

-- first, chlchl does appear possible genetically. However, the seal genotype (chlchl) won't express phaeomelanin (no orange color at all) so the saddle would go white and a bunny with genotype aabbchlchlD-ee would be a smoke pearl point. That's NOT Neville.
-- Therefore, he got the C allele from his sire and his 'hidden' allele from his dam. 50% chance he got the chl from his dam, which would make him Cchl. But the other 50% is that he got the gene she was hiding -- which could be either ch or c. We need more information - either about Neville's siblings, half-siblings from the same dam, or more generations back in the pedigree to figure out whether the hidden gene is ch or c.

Overall odds for his genotype based on current knowledge = aabb +
Cchl = 50%
Cch = 25%
Cc = 25%

+ ddee

I went back and re-read all the article in the NALRC about Torts. And can see why there is a lot of Chocolate Points in his pedigree.

Tort Genetics By Jeremy Armstrong

"There are some things that are hurting the Black Tortoise color, in my opinion. Number one being that we are breeding for lighter Sable Points and then inter-breeding Sable Points and Black Tortoise as an encouraged breeding program. From experience, I've found that the Tortoises we get from our darker Sable Points are more corrected shaded. I believe that this is, in fact, harming the color of the Tortoises we are getting. It is lightening the Tortoise color and in doing so is making the Black Tortoises indistinguishable form the Chocolate and Blue varieties."


You better believe it's dicey. And caveat...let the buyer beware. Oh well, hind sight they say. Just have to now find out a way to work with it.

I can only go as far back as four generations on the pedigree.

Sire Side : Chocolate and Black

Dam Side: Chocolate, REW, Siamese Sable.

Here's some pics. I truly believe he leans toward chocolate and not a blue.

4 week old pic
Posted Image

This is the coloring he was when we first brought him home.
Posted Image


Love this pic, He looks like my little alien, lol. Just amazed at all his fluff.
Posted Image

Here he is at 9 months old
Posted Image



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ZRabbits
Love My Lions!
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NeuBunny
Aug 5 2013, 10:20 AM
ZRabbits
Aug 4 2013, 11:19 PM
Luna's, I'm going to need help. Since broken is not even considered yet for Lion heads, nothing discussed in NALRC guidebook or newsletter, and I'm having problem understanding the Broken gene.

Luna: Broken Chocolate Would it be: aa bb C_ D_ En_?

Luna's Sire: Broken Chocolate Otter at_ bb C_ D_ En_?
His Sire: Black Otter at_ B_ C_ dd E_
His Dam: Broken Chocolate aa bb C_ D_ En_?

Luna's Dam: Chocolate Tort: aa bb C_ D_ ee
Her Sire: Chocolate: aa bb C_ D_ E_
Her Dam: Chocolate: aa bb C_ D_ E_


Definitely need help on this one. Just a note: Luna is NOT a Charlie. She has 4 solid kits. Two I think are chocolate selfs.

Thanks for any input! Would truly appreciate some guidance.



Despite starting with the letter E, En (English spotting) is not an E-allele - it's a separate gene. An unfortunate choice of symbols.

Broken chocolate (NOT charlie because of the solid chocolate kits) =
aabbC-D-E- Enen

Note that most pedigrees, even the ones that do include genotypes, don't bother writing the En/en part of the code because it is 'obvious' from the phenotype - charlie = EnEn, broken = Enen, and solid = enen. The exception would be if you have a genetic charlie with just enough color to 'pass' for a phenotypic broken -- or a genetic broken that has a bit too little color and is disqualified as a phenotypic charlie.

Luna's dam is a tort (ee) so she gave Luna an e-allele, which is hiding. Luna is Ee.

Luna's pedigree includes no dilutes, but that's a recessive that can hide. If she had even one great-grandparent that were dilute (dd) then she has a 25% chance of hiding d, even if it didn't show up anywhere in between. So we have to leave that second D-gene as a blank.

If I recall our previous conversation, Luna had two kits that were either red-eyed white or possibly pointed (red eyes, white, but some dark marks on the nose/points).

If either kit is a true REW (genotype cc), then Luna is carrying the c-allele and her genotype is Cc.
If the 'white' kits both have red eyes and some color on the points, they are genetic himi (chch or chc) and Luna had to give them either the ch-allele or the c-allele (with the other coming from their sire). So her second C-gene is either ch or c.

Overall I would write her genotype as

aabbC(ch/c)D_Ee Enen

Note: when I can narrow the hidden gene down to a couple of options, I like to write them in parentheses - e.g., using (ch/c) because I know C, chd, and chl are impossible. If all the options are possible (e.g., with the D or d) I just use a blank.








"If I recall our previous conversation, Luna had two kits that were either red-eyed white or possibly pointed (red eyes, white, but some dark marks on the nose/points).

If either kit is a true REW (genotype cc), then Luna is carrying the c-allele and her genotype is Cc."

No small dark marks any more. Found out Molly likes to dig with her nose in her litter box. After poking herself in the eye with hay, and scaring herself and Luna next to her, she's stopped that. Dirty nose is all. Both are REW's.

Read that Black Torts carry either one chocolate gene, one dilute gene and can only hide REW, Himi or Shaded.

"Note: when I can narrow the hidden gene down to a couple of options, I like to write them in parentheses - e.g., using (ch/c) because I know C, chd, and chl are impossible. If all the options are possible (e.g., with the D or d) I just use a blank."

Thanks!
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