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| chilled kits - how long until you give up? | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Nov 1 2013, 08:48 AM (2,311 Views) | |
| NeuBunny | Nov 1 2013, 08:48 AM Post #1 |
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Genetics Geek!
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So, thinking about a comment someone posted (sidd?) re warming chilled kits - and that they need much longer to warm up and recover completely than most people assume -- hours. and some years ago hearing someone on another forum say that you shouldn't assume a kit is dead until it is warm and dead. I've never managed to have a chilled newborn kit survive (week old babies, yes). So I wonder if there is something more I could/should do. If I find a kit that's so cold it is already stiff I assume I'm too late. Lately, when I've found one that is cold and not moving, but not stiff, I usually try putting it against my skin for 10 minutes or so -- but if I still don't feel movement I assume I was too late. If I find one that is still moving, I put it against my skin until it feels (once) warm/active (~20-30 minutes) and then put it back in the box with siblings or (more often) until it stops moving/reacting for more than 10 minutes (at which point I assume it has died). Am I giving them long enough? |
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| sidd-says-gimme | Nov 1 2013, 09:38 AM Post #2 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Although some claim to be able to revive newborns that are cold and not moving at all, I haven't had much experience with that. The very few times I have had chilled newborns, I wasn't able to revive them. To me, it sounds like you're doing enough but if you have doubts, you can put them in your shirt while you put a towel in the dryer for a few minutes, then put them in that for a while. I have had babies that got chilled a day or so after birth and I usually lost those because I didn't keep them warm enough (which I have learned recently... I was just keeping them in my shirt until they were warm, but of course since they weren't fully warmed they just chilled again right after). With the 2 (fairly) recent kits that I have had chilled, they were both a little under a week old so had a bit of fur. The most recent was on his back, not really moving with mom hovering over him. When I approached, she jumped to the door and frantically tugged on it. Poor girl. The other one had his head stuck in the cage wire and I was sure he was dead. I carefully took him out, then after a moment he responded to my warmth. Usually they will twitch and make little noises when they go from very cold to feeling a lot of sudden warmth. |
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| redbunny | Nov 1 2013, 01:47 PM Post #3 |
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NeuBunny I've saved two kits to date out of maybe twenty or so. Cold and stiff come hand in hand even bluing of the limbs indicating deoxygenated blood. I give them all a chance as this stiffness although similar to rigourmortis is not quite the same. Rigourmortis sets in after a while and doesn't last long whereas stiffness in the living kit lasts longer. All cold and stiff babies go down my shirt for half an hour. The big issue is getting them back into the nest at the same temperature as the kits already in there else they all start jumping about and trying to vacate the nest which isn't good. In my experience revived kits put back into a nest often end up at the bottom of the nest squashed and dead. As I say....only 2. What price a life? I like they saying warm and dead. I've seen this very same cold, stiff and motionless in young pigeons but success with them is much higher. I find dealing with kits tough but I give them the chance. |
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| ZRabbits | Nov 2 2013, 06:07 AM Post #4 |
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Love My Lions!
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Very interesting thread. With Tonks, we did everything we could for her as she was the weakest. Even though we lost her before her first birthday, I would do it all over again. I guess it's just our compassion to try to help. If I should find a chilled kit, I will take the advise given here. Warm and dead, I will know I did everything for that kit and it just wasn't meant to be. |
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| redbunny | Nov 2 2013, 04:20 PM Post #5 |
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Z I think you're right, some of us are compassionate. When there is hope there is a chance. I wonder how many would though. |
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| ZRabbits | Nov 3 2013, 08:24 AM Post #6 |
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Love My Lions!
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Don't really wonder how many would. Compassion is viewed in many forms and I respect those forms. Some would feel that a chilled kit is already lost. That damage has already occurred. Some would feel that what I did for my Tonks was cruel and the outcome shows that my compassion to help on delayed the inevitable. Respect them on that too. Some feel it's not worth trying to save runts. Compassion comes in many forms and as long as the rabbits are well cared for, dealt with compassionately whether allowing life to take it's course or giving some extra help, to me that's someone who respects their animals. Unfortunately life isn't a guarantee for every bun. And sad things do happen. You just honestly do the best you can. I'm truly glad I did what I did for Tonks. She was a lovely doe and she taught me a lot. But would not take offense to anyone who said I was wrong to do what I did. |
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| sidd-says-gimme | Nov 3 2013, 08:54 AM Post #7 |
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sidd says stay gold
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I totally agree, Z. I cull my runts and kits that aren't thriving for no apparent reason. I believe that this is my own way of being compassionate... I certainly don't want to do it. I'm looking out for that animal's future, I believe that it's my responsibility to do what needs to be done, even if it goes completely against my nature and upsets me a lot. However, I also respect other breeders' views on this and don't think any less/more depending that. We all do things differently, I'll do what I think needs to be done and you do what you think is best... and hopefully we can listen to each other's view points and respect them for talking about something difficult rather than being judgmental.
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| redbunny | Nov 4 2013, 04:24 PM Post #8 |
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Yes it's a complex philosophical issue. When I used to keep chickens often chicks couldn't hatch properly and I knew if they didn't get help they'd die in the shell. Often they'd survive after help but eventually succumb. Either not growing or just weak and picked on. Sure, some survived. Maybe it's the same with rabbit kits. They are out of the nest etc for a reason! |
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| ZRabbits | Nov 5 2013, 08:45 AM Post #9 |
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Love My Lions!
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Some kits just don't know their own strength. And get curious to explore at a very young age. Even with their eyes still closed. Another reason for being out of the nest. That's the sad part. Healthy kits that don't know to stay put or hang on for extra feed. I was just as surprised as Luna watching those young kits explore. How active, also already trying pellets and hay. Also with the curiosity of the water bowl. Had to fish out Fleur several times, lol Had to a few times take a kit (Ginnie) that still had their eyes closed and put her back with their siblings. |
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| sidd-says-gimme | Nov 5 2013, 09:45 AM Post #10 |
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sidd says stay gold
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They can be so spunky sometimes... For the most part, my kits are chubby and lazy. Sometimes one gets bold though.
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| redbunny | Nov 5 2013, 03:57 PM Post #11 |
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I want to see them in the nest sleeping but find give them a reason and they'll be out! |
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| ZRabbits | Nov 6 2013, 06:37 AM Post #12 |
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Love My Lions!
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Chubby and lazy? All that good milk from Mom I would say. Smart doe, keeps them well fed, so that they stay in the nest box. |
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| ZRabbits | Nov 6 2013, 06:42 AM Post #13 |
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Love My Lions!
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Loved seeing sleeping kits. Poor Molly, being the biggest, all the others piled on top of her. But also loved to see them venture out. Seeing those little faces peer out at us used to give us such smiles. Wasn't a big deal here because the kits were inside. No reasons for chilling here. So if outside definitely want young kits to stay in the nest box until they are actually ready to come out. |
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| sidd-says-gimme | Nov 6 2013, 07:00 AM Post #14 |
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sidd says stay gold
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Yeah, I think my kits are very content for the most part... if nothing else, I am very happy with my rabbits' mothering and kindling skills. Not all Hollands are bad.
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| ZRabbits | Nov 6 2013, 07:52 AM Post #15 |
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Love My Lions!
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I heard that Hollands were a bit tough to raise, but I think it was more because the pelvis might be too narrow and you know hollands have those boxy heads. And after Kree's remarkable delivery of that huge kit with no problems, I would think you are very content on your herd's ability to kindle. Never heard anything bad about their mothering skills. And after reading your experiences, sounds like Hollands can be wonderful mothers. Dang you Sidd, more and more reading your replies about your Hollands, seeing those adorable baby photos, definitely would love to have a Holland in the Z-Tribe. To me Hollands are "Hulks" of the Dwarf World. Lovely bunnies. |
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For the most part, my kits are chubby and lazy. Sometimes one gets bold though.
2:10 PM Jul 11