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Hillsborough Papers Released; What next?
Topic Started: Sep 12 2012, 12:45 PM (1,138 Views)
rumbaba
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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19543964


After both Orgreave and Hillsborough, South Yorkshire police – under its chief constable, Peter Wright, who died last year – was accused of the concerted fabrication of evidence against the miners and Liverpool supporters respectively. A pity that Peter Wright is not around to face justice. Hopefully, the Hillsborough report, which has been released today, will put paid to any attempts to have a state funeral for Margaret Thatcher, who is implicated in the cover up (she owed the SY police for Orgreave). Well done to Andy Burnham for setting up this enquiry. I heard Cameron's apology in the commons and I have to admit, he's good: I almost believed him. Let's see what happens next. Surely the inquest verdict has to be set aside and new inquests set up. Maybe, in the interestrs of decency, the BBC will now stop inviting the shameless Kelvin McKenzie to appear on Question Time.
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madfor4

rumbaba
Sep 12 2012, 12:45 PM
Hopefully, the Hillsborough report, which has been released today, will put paid to any attempts to have a state funeral for Margaret Thatcher, who is implicated in the cover up (she owed the SY police for Orgreave). Well done to Andy Burnham for setting up this enquiry.
I think many of the families of the victims would sttle for a state funeral; providing it's held tomorrow.
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rumbaba
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Yes, Mad, I've heard it many times before, where I come from in Scotland, which was a mining area: State cremation, Joan of Arc style.
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caissier
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I'll bet Cameron had his All Very Concerned, tilted head, awf'ly pained, make the best of it, face on. He sounded if being ironic the way he emphasised the word 'apology'.

The journalist who wrote up the Hillsborough stoey has said recently that Kelvin wrote the headline, blaming fans etc. himself. The journalist protested but Kelvin said. "Ah , it'll be alright ...... chip-paper etc ..... ".

Given he had a hot-line to the government then, it's easy to put things together. Maybe more about that will emerge ..... and we won't have to put up with his bone-headed bullying bluster on various panels.




























0
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rumbaba
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A hollow apology 23 years too late from Kelvin McKenzie. The best thing that can happen is for him to return to the obscurity from which he should never have been allowed to emerge - pond life.
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Caro

I was just about to write "Why is this report coming out now, so long after the event?" when the radio began a new interview beginning with more or less that sentence. Our correspondent, I think Matthew Parris, (yes, it is) is saying it is coming out that the Liverpool fans were completely blameless and have been completely vindicated and there had been a complete cover-up by police and government.

But why did anything need to be covered up? If the police had done it wrong at the time, why could that not have been said? The correspondent called David Cameron's apology 'profound', so I don't see why it can't be considered genuine. I don't think you really need to be cynical about this sort of thing.

"A huge new haemorrhage of trust in the police". And a great shock that the insistence of the people of Liverpool and the victims' families have been proved completely right, and any doubts about them were wrong.

But why has it taken 22 years or so for this to have been released? Did they feel they had to wait for the death of the police chief, or is that just completely coincidental?
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rumbaba
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It's a good question Caro.I guess Peter Wright was the person who verbally briefed Thatcher at the time and he would have taken a few down with him it it had all come out before. You need to understand what it was like under Thatcher. There was a brief period, during the miners' strike,when the UK was close to a police state and South Yorkshire police were very closely in cahoots with the government. Fabrication of evidence, smearing via a tame press and police breaking the law, while reporting directly to Downing Street were routine. Orgreave was a disgrace and even the BBC was complicit in the smearing of the miners. Film of the police attacking peaceful miners with horses was reversed on the BBC news to show the miners' reaction first and the police charging after. I know it is hard to believe but the documentary evidence is available for those who can be bothered to check it out and I know how my father, who was a trade union organiser, was treated during this time. illegal, disgraceful behaviour by an out of control police force. That culture was in place when Hillsborough happened and the police,together with the coroner's office,colluded with the Home Office to smear innocent people. It's a disgrace but, apart from some nice words from Cameron, nobody will be brought to book.
Edited by rumbaba, Sep 12 2012, 11:01 PM.
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waiting4atickle
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We seem to have gone from one extreme to another here. Am I the only one who finds it hard to believe that "the Liverpool fans were completely blameless"?

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Caro

I suppose they are meaning the fans only reacted after they were charged by police. And I would assume there was some sort of pushing to get into the grounds, but that isn't necessarily something to be blamed for; it happens sometimes with crowds.

We don't have police on horseback in NZ (as far as I know) and once when we were off to Morrison's in Sheffield we took a while to understand what was holding us up, but it was a game at Hillsborough and people were being escorted slowly along surrounded by police on horses. It was a real cultural event for us, and something we had never seen before. (Did see it occasionally later.) Being divided into fans or opposition fans was always difficult for us, since often we had no real allegiance to a team, and it was ridiculous to separate the Welsh and NZ fans at a soccer game. As if Welsh and NZers would ever be attacking each other. The Welsh were more likely to be attacking their own players after a 1-1 (or some sort of) draw. There were about six of us - my son, husband and me from NZ, and my daughter-in-law, her father and her brother - and we were supposed to sit in separate places. My husband got irritated with me because I didn't want to accept that since it was stupid, and we did make our way to each other eventually. Some rules should not be adhered to.
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madfor4

waiting4atickle
Sep 13 2012, 12:20 AM

We seem to have gone from one extreme to another here. Am I the only one who finds it hard to believe that "the Liverpool fans were completely blameless"?

They were football fans trying to get into a match that had already started.
Between 'pushing and shoving' and Kelvin MacKenzie's "Some fans picked pockets of victims", "Some fans urinated on the brave cops and bodies of the dead", "Some fans beat up PC giving kiss of life", "a dead girl had been "abused", etc. is a bit of an unbridgable gulf.
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becky sharp
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Truth at last for the families of the 96 victims of the Hillsborough disaster...only took 23 years.

I hope never to see Kelvin McKenzie on our screens again in any capacity....
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Caro

Sorry to be ignorant again of British matters, but who is Kelvin McKenzie?
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madfor4

Caro
Sep 13 2012, 07:41 AM
Sorry to be ignorant again of British matters, but who is Kelvin McKenzie?
Just be thankful you have to ask.
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Lurkalot

becky sharp
Sep 13 2012, 07:26 AM
Truth at last for the families of the 96 victims of the Hillsborough disaster...only took 23 years.

I hope never to see Kelvin McKenzie on our screens again in any capacity....
<ok>

'scum' comes to mind! sadly we have 7 editions of The Sun now!

As regards police, not only institutionally racist (stephen lawrance) but also renowned for the cover ups!

i sat down to watch the match on telly, what i saw, i couldnot believe. i'm formerly from sheffield and i know some of my coleagues were at the match, i also know some of the relatives of the people who were at the match. i cannot even begin to imagine the thoughts on the minds of the relatives. i know they didn't know what was happening and in those days, we didn't have mobile phones.

i'm a man utd fan but also a football fan. my heart goes out to the 96 dead <rose>
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Lurkalot

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caissier
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The disaster happened because the crowd were penned in by high fencing grilles at the bottom of the terraces. After the Ibrox disaster and disasters in air-raid shelters in the war - Bethnal Green for one - it is incredible that this could not have been forseen. Thousand of people massed on a slope at big matches could easily have fallen forward on each other; a kind of irresponsible sadistic crowd management of the football scum.

http://www.twohundredpercent.net/?p=10470


Caro ...... Kelvin McKenzie is a loud-mouthed, bullying, coarse, right-wing ex-editor of the Sun, who likes to outrage with provocatively nasty attitudes and statements. He was a creature of Rupert Murdoch. He is also cockily proud of being all that.

This has come out very belatedly. What else has been covered up over the years? What hasn't?

I think it comes down to the people who are attracted to being police. So often they are rude, contemptuous, barely suppressing aggression, quick to assume wrongdoing and liking to humiliate and to abuse their power in an everyday way. You encounter in a routine way if stopped when driving - the sarcastic tone and attempted intimidating manner. No wonder they also tend to want to be secretive and cover up their wrong-doings. Guilty consciences.

This could get even bigger - there must have been collusion and conspiracy. David Mellor was on Today, this morning, trying to laugh off Jack Straw's suggestion that the government was involved.
Edited by caissier, Sep 13 2012, 09:25 AM.
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madfor4

caissier
Sep 13 2012, 09:02 AM
...... Kelvin McKenzie is a loud-mouthed, bullying, coarse, right-wing ex-editor of the Sun, who likes to outrage with provocatively nasty attitudes and statements. He was a creature of Rupert Murdoch. He is also cockily proud of being all that............


.............This could get even bigger - there must have been collusion and conspiracy. David Mellor was on Today, this morning, trying to laugh off Jack Straw's suggestion that the government was involved.......
MacKenzie explained his reporting in 1993. Talking to a House of Commons National Heritage Select Committee, he said: "I regret Hillsborough. It was a fundamental mistake. The mistake was I believed what an MP said. It was a Tory MP. If he had not said it and the Chief Superintendent (David Duckenfield) had not agreed with it, we would not have gone with it."

MacKenzie repudiated this apology in November 2006, saying that he only apologised because the newspaper's owner Rupert Murdoch ordered him to do so. He said, "I was not sorry then and I'm not sorry now" for the paper's coverage. MacKenzie refused again to apologise when appearing on the BBC's topical Question Time on 11 January 2007

A real 'charmer'

<dalek>

Thatcher saw the police as an 'arm of the government' and they were, after she awarded them a massive pay-rise, only too eager to behave as such. Under her they were able to act with impunity (see 'battle of the beanfield') by hiding their badges of identity and behaving more in keeping with the worst excesses of US strike breakers than "PC Dixons". Sadly, none of this will ever be investigated.
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rumbaba
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waiting4atickle
Sep 13 2012, 12:20 AM

We seem to have gone from one extreme to another here. Am I the only one who finds it hard to believe that "the Liverpool fans were completely blameless"?

I think, Tick, that is the conclusion that everyone has come to, or at least, that the behaviour of fans wasn't a significant factor in causing the tragedy. Of course, football crowds are not composed of curates skipping evensong but the conspiracy to blame them for this was a disgrace. Why would a coroner request blood samples from dead children, one as young as ten, to test for alcohol? Why were the records of the deceased scrutinised to see if any had criminal convictions? This is not something that can be justified or even explained. I also don't understand why any national newspaper would report on the basis of a third hand opinion via a news agency. It wasn't enough for the police to deny the incompetence of themselves and the emergency services , they added insult to injury with lurid tales of police being attacked, the dead being urinated on and having their pockets picked.

Simon Heffer/Boris Johnson in their Spectator piece attacked the relatives who have fought for 23 years for the truth to come out for 'wallowing in their victim status', simply because they refused to give up on this. Of course, now we have Boris, Kelvin, South Yorkshire police, The Sun and everybody else 'apologisng' . No sign of Bernard Ingham or Douglas Hurd apologising though and Thatcher is a different sort of doolally these days, so no chance of her saying 'sorry'.
Edited by rumbaba, Sep 13 2012, 03:55 PM.
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Lurkalot

The Heysel Stadium disaster only effected liverpool but other ENGLISH clubs and there lies the reason to blame fans!

Liverpool were banned from Europe too!

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Caro

Quote:
 
I think it comes down to the people who are attracted to being police. So often they are rude, contemptuous, barely suppressing aggression, quick to assume wrongdoing and liking to humiliate and to abuse their power in an everyday way. You encounter in a routine way if stopped when driving - the sarcastic tone and attempted intimidating manner.


Caissier, before you posted that I was wondering about why police often act like this. It isn't just in Britain, the situation in the "Arab Spring" countries was not helped by the police and army actions, American police seem to shoot first and ask questions later, if ever, and I remember during the Springbok Tour protests here in 1981 the police went in with batons against protesters. Of course, the protesters were expecting this and perhaps provoking it, but many of them were peacenik type of people. Here we have also had 'dawn raids' against Pacific Island people overstaying, and the Urewera raids (described originally all over the world as terrorist preparations) where the police went in early in the day and terrified children and women and older people, as well no doubt as many younger men.

I live in an area with a lovely policeman who joins in community activities - the search and rescue, coaches rugby, is president of the golf club and a strong church member - so feel I am not being totally fair here, but there does seem to be a tendency for police to go in too hard. I don't know if that is because of the type of people attracted to police work, or young testosterone-filled men, or because in these situations they are afraid. A while ago we were travelling north and we passed about 8 police cars speeding and with their lights and sirens going and wondered what disaster must be taking place. Whatever it was, there was no mention of it in the newspapers or television; I heard that perhaps a couple of men had been raiding a warehouse or similar. At any rate it hardly seemed to warrant this sort of reaction and we couldn't help thinking they just fancied a good fast furious drive.
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Lurkalot

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<doh>
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Lurkalot

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becky sharp
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Words fail me over this cover up ..I am sad and angry in equal measure

From today's Independent....


CPS 'told of Hillsborough cover-up 14 years ago'


Senior lawyers at the Crown Prosecution Service (CPS) were handed detailed analysis of the police cover-up of the Hillsborough disaster 14 years ago but decided to take no action against any officers involved, the senior lawyer who led a private prosecution on behalf of the families says today.

In a withering attack on the criminal-justice system in The Independent, Alun Jones, QC says the Director of Public Prosecutions needs to explain why his office did "absolutely nothing" in 1998 after considering a line-by-line analysis of tampered reports by South Yorkshire police.

Mr Jones, who led an unsuccessful manslaughter prosecution of the two most senior officers on duty at the ground where 96 Liverpool fans died in 1989, said that police were heavily protected in law during investigations into their conduct and only "herculean" efforts by victims brought the truth to light.

Mr Jones's criticisms came as one of the country's most senior chief constables apologised after suggesting yesterday that the behaviour of the fans on the day of the tragedy had made it harder for police to control the situation.

Sir Norman Bettison, the current head of West Yorkshire Police, headed a team of senior officers charged with putting the case for South Yorkshire police in the immediate aftermath of the tragedy. He has fended off calls for his resignation saying he had nothing to do with the cover-up.

However, his intervention on Thursday only increased the anger of the families. In a statement yesterday, he said: "The evidence was overwhelming. The police failed to control the situation, which ultimately led to the tragic deaths of 96 entirely innocent people. I can be no plainer than that and I am sorry if my earlier statement, intended to convey the same message, has caused any further upset."

Mr Jones says that the Hillsborough Family Support Group launched the private prosecution in light of inaction by the Director of Public Prosecutions (DPP) to prosecute anyone over the tragedy. The then Home Secretary Jack Straw lodged all the original and amended statements to the House of Commons library in 1998.

"We furnished the DPP, and Attorney General, with an analysis demonstrating the gravity of the conspiracy," Mr Jones writes. He adds: "It is the DPP, particularly, who needs to explain why his office did absolutely nothing." Mr Jones said the analysis was prepared to head off any attempt by the authorities to halt the manslaughter prosecution of David Duckenfield and his deputy Bernard Murray. The private prosecution failed in 2000.

A Crown Prosecution spokesperson said: "The Crown Prosecution Service was approached in 1998 by both parties to the private prosecution and asked to take it over.

"At the time we concluded we would not intervene and the private prosecution went ahead. We provided documentation to the Hillsborough Independent Panel about the reasons behind this decision in 1998 and the Panel has made no criticism of the CPS or the DPP over this." The current head of South Yorkshire police, David Crompton, has said that anyone who is found to have falsified police documents would face criminal investigation.




http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/cps-told-of-hillsborough-coverup-14-years-ago-8140104.html
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caissier
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It feels like the cover up of paedophile priests in Ireland - the dignity and position of the Establishment was assumed to be more important than lowly individuals.

Lord Denning said that preserving the majesty of the law was more important than a few innocent people being hanged.
Edited by caissier, Sep 15 2012, 05:59 PM.
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rumbaba
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Indeed Caissier, and that is what all 'establishments do: the maintainance of the state; or 'the party' or 'the whatever' becomes more important than morality or decency at an individual level :(
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rumbaba
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Well done to Carol Ann Duffy.



The Cathedral bell, tolled, could never tell;

nor the Liver Birds, mute in their stone spell;

or the Mersey, though seagulls wailed, cursed, overhead,

in no language for the slandered dead...

not the raw, red throat of the Kop, keening,

or the cops’ words, censored of meaning;

not the clock, slow handclapping the coroner’s deadline,

or the memo to Thatcher, or the tabloid headline...

but fathers told of their daughters; the names of sons

on the lips of their mothers like prayers; lost ones

honoured for bitter years by orphan, cousin, wife -

not a matter of football, but of life.

Over this great city, light after long dark;

truth, the sweet silver song of the lark.



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becky sharp
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Yes! well done indeed,rum.... <rose>

Kelvin McKenzie wants Hillsborough apology from police

Ex-Sun editor Kelvin MacKenzie wants South Yorkshire Police to apologise for the "vilification" he received in the wake of the Hillsborough tragedy.

His lawyers have contacted the force asking for an apology over his "personal vilification for decades", the BBC's Ross Hawkins reported.

Mr MacKenzie printed a front page story about Liverpool fans, shortly after the 1989 disaster, headlined "The Truth".

Ninety-six football fans died as a result of the tragedy in Sheffield.

In an article for the Spectator to be published on Thursday, MacKenzie says: "I hope that after 23 years we can all agree on the truth."
Agency copy

People in Liverpool boycotted his newspaper after the article claimed fans pickpocketed the dead and urinated on police.

The Hillsborough Independent Inquiry report, which was published two weeks ago, said there was no evidence to support the allegations in The Sun article.

It stated: "The documents disclosed to the panel show that the origin of these serious allegations was a local Sheffield press agency informed by several SYP officers, an SYP Police Federation spokesperson and a local MP.

"They also demonstrate how the SYP Police Federation, supported informally by the SYP chief constable, sought to develop and publicise a version of events that focused on several police officers' allegations of drunkenness, ticketlessness and violence among a large number of Liverpool fans."


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-19727779

<erm>
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madfor4

Perhaps Kelvin McKenzie might explain why (even as late as 2011), when he knew the facts were wrong, did he refuse to apologise...
On second thoughts it would be best if he were never again given any media attention!
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rumbaba
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Kelvin McKenzie is a man without shame, decency and anything resembling a moral compass. He will work this angle now, like he worked the original story to enhance his notoriety: he revels in it. The best thing that everyone can do is to ignore him. He craves publicity like a narcotic and will say just about anything to keep his name in the headlines, that's why he kept the Hillborough thing going for as long as he did, despite the fact that anyone who regarded themselves as a newspaper man could and would have worked it out long ago. It's time for him to return to the obscurity from which he should never have been allowed to emerge.
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caissier
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becky sharp
Sep 13 2012, 07:26 AM
Truth at last for the families of the 96 victims of the Hillsborough disaster...only took 23 years.

I hope never to see Kelvin McKenzie on our screens again in any capacity....
Maybe just this little incident, Becky ........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R4oiBxXfNE&feature=player_embedded

Yes, I don't see him as a guest on QT or AQ again but with the Beeb you never know.
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Lurkalot

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19850535

Sir Norman bettison to retire in march 2013 to make way for a newbie...

no doubt a fat cheque and pension for him!
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becky sharp
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caissier
Oct 5 2012, 05:22 PM
becky sharp
Sep 13 2012, 07:26 AM
Truth at last for the families of the 96 victims of the Hillsborough disaster...only took 23 years.

I hope never to see Kelvin McKenzie on our screens again in any capacity....
Maybe just this little incident, Becky ........

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1R4oiBxXfNE&feature=player_embedded

Go on then,caissier.... <ok> :D
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becky sharp
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Hillsborough police crime probe


The biggest ever independent investigation into police wrongdoing is to be carried out following damning reports into the Hillsborough disaster.

The IPCC police watchdog and director of public prosecutions have announced they will both launch inquiries into possible crimes committed by police.

The IPCC said both serving and former officers would be investigated over the deaths of 96 Liverpool fans in 1989.

They will consider if individuals or corporate bodies should be charged.

A "large number" of current and former officers now face investigation over claims made in a report on the Hillsborough disaster, the IPCC said.

The Hillsborough Independent Panel last month revealed 164 police statements were altered - 116 of them to remove or change negative comments about the policing of the FA Cup semi-final between Liverpool and Nottingham Forest at the Sheffield stadium.

Deputy chair of the IPCC Deborah Glass said "without a shadow of a doubt" it would be the biggest ever investigation carried out into police behaviour in the UK.

Both South Yorkshire Police, who dealt with the tragedy, and West Midlands Police, who investigated how South Yorkshire handled the disaster, will come under scrutiny.

Sir Norman Bettison, currently Chief Constable of West Yorkshire, has been referred to the IPCC over allegations that he provided misleading information after the tragedy.

It has also been revealed that he is also under investigation for allegations that he "attempted to influence the decision-making process of the West Yorkshire Police Authority in connection with the referral that they had made", Ms Glass said.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-19922092
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Lurkalot

There are many nicknames/slangs whatever for the police, 'filth' is one of them!
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Lurkalot

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-20035472

Hillsborough: 1,444 police names passed to IPCC
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Lurkalot

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-20070150

bettison resigns early now ...
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Lurkalot

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-20753831

Hillsborough single released to support families' legal fight - tipped to be christmas no. 1 and hope it is!
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Lurkalot

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-20772416

Hillsborough inquest verdicts quashed by High Court ...

quite rightly so and justice for the 96 ..
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Lurkalot

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-22196415

Hillsborough justice campaigner Anne Williams dies at 60 ...
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becky sharp
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Lurkalot
Apr 18 2013, 02:06 PM
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-22196415

Hillsborough justice campaigner Anne Williams dies at 60 ...
I hope this very brave woman, who never wavered in her quest for peace, rests in peace


"Her calls for a fresh inquest were rejected by three attorney generals and the European Court of Human Rights.

But everything changed when the landmark report by The Hillsborough Independent Panel, published in November, found that 41 fans could have been saved, casting doubt on the "15:15 cut off" imposed by the coroner.

The attorney general applied for fresh inquests and home secretary Theresa May announced a new police inquiry into the disaster"


<rose>
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Lurkalot

I understand that liverpool lowered the flag for her (but not for maggie) <unionjack>
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madfor4

I seriously believe that "Thatcher's Police", aided by media connivance, believed themselves above any laws....

The years of cover-up regarding Hillsborough, Orgreave, the murder of Blair Peach and the infamous "Battle of the Beanfields" more reflect the actions of a private army than an 'independent' police force....

ref to Rums opening post last year..."Hopefully, the Hillsborough report, which has been released today, will put paid to any attempts to have a state funeral for Margaret Thatcher, who is implicated in the cover up (she owed the SY police for Orgreave)." ....

Tell me; how did that turn out? <steam> <steam> <steam>
Edited by madfor4, Apr 19 2013, 09:07 AM.
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Lurkalot

madfor4
Apr 19 2013, 09:04 AM

ref to Rums opening post last year..."Hopefully, the Hillsborough report, which has been released today, will put paid to any attempts to have a state funeral for Margaret Thatcher, who is implicated in the cover up (she owed the SY police for Orgreave)." ....

Tell me; how did that turn out? <steam> <steam> <steam>
sadly, this was never going to happen.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2013/apr/17/margaret-thatcher-funeral-cameron-respect

friends in high places and all that and we are all thatcherites! <erm>
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